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Old 01-07-2012, 02:59 PM
 
Location: Mexico City, formerly Columbus, Ohio
12,800 posts, read 12,831,751 times
Reputation: 5473

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Quote:
Originally Posted by malamute View Post
What's wrong with Mexico? Don't forget it's part of the same land mass as the USA and Canada -- only with far better weather, beautiful coasts, a longer growing season.

What's wrong with Mexico that all progress stops at our southern border? Who are the corrupt ones?

You may despise the American people with all your might -- but it's not Americans that built a "disadvantaged" nation. It's not American culture that encourages so many teenagers to drop out of school and start having babies they can never afford unless they sneak into another country. We take care of our own.

It's not the land, the water, the air that's wrong with Mexico. It's the culture of irresponsibility. Having many children before being able to afford them. The whole excuse of the illegals -- "I had to break the laws or my 8, 9 children would starve!!".

The American people have these nice programs in place -- free health care for all, the best free health care anyone could want. So who are the corrupt ones? Not the Americans -- but you might want to look at those who never did anything for their nation but leave it, who don't build schools or hospitals for themselves.
Your attempt to make this into me bashing Mexico is supremely ironic.

I don't despise the American people, are you kidding me? And I'm pretty sure America does have a culture where teens drop of out school and have kids. I'm pretty sure America does have an inordinate amount of residents on government assistance.

The problem is that, while both nations do have certain aspects of cultural irresponsibility, it makes less sense in the most powerful, richest nation on earth where almost no one grows up into the kind of poverty that a large portion of Mexicans do.
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Old 01-07-2012, 03:00 PM
 
47,576 posts, read 58,967,072 times
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I think it's fair enough if we provide the first aid kind of emergency care -- but there should be NO objection to the illegal going back home for the followup care.

Many illegals expect even free rehab care here -- yet that kind of care is perfectly adequate in their own country.
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Old 01-07-2012, 03:02 PM
 
Location: Mexico City, formerly Columbus, Ohio
12,800 posts, read 12,831,751 times
Reputation: 5473
Quote:
Originally Posted by malamute View Post
Of course birth rates in Mexico are down because the responsible types actually stay there and have their babies when they can support them, it's the low class that isn't responsible that comes here to give birth -- the birth rate of "hispanics" in the USA is sky high.

Mexicans aren't a monolith - the middle and upper classes in Mexico don't have the same exact culture and way of life as the illiterate class that is coming to the USA. We're getting the subclass that lacks education, ability to be middle class and that has the very high birth rates.
It's interesting how you associate poor with "low class".

Can you link where birth rates for Hispanics are "sky high"?

Also, if America is getting such terrible people, why are they able to take so many jobs from Americans, given your implication that Americans are inherently of a higher class?
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Old 01-07-2012, 03:04 PM
 
Location: Mexico City, formerly Columbus, Ohio
12,800 posts, read 12,831,751 times
Reputation: 5473
Quote:
Originally Posted by malamute View Post
I think it's fair enough if we provide the first aid kind of emergency care -- but there should be NO objection to the illegal going back home for the followup care.

Many illegals expect even free rehab care here -- yet that kind of care is perfectly adequate in their own country.
Link on % of illegals that expect free health care in the US?
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Old 01-07-2012, 03:09 PM
 
3,493 posts, read 2,398,149 times
Reputation: 2345
Quote:
Originally Posted by libertylover7 View Post
60% of us prefer an approach with a path to citizenship...that is the we.

You are less than 40%.

And that is before the bill is disclosed.
A path that includes huge fines and leaving the country, not access to the American welfare system and a free college degree for Mexico's underclass.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jbcmh81 View Post
I honestly have never been more disgusted with my fellow countrymen than coming to this forum and seeing what utter callous, selfish, inhuman people exist here. When people talk here, I'm reminded of the immortal words of Ebenezer Scrooge, who suggested that the poor would be better off dead, if only to reduce the population. At least he's fictional and has a change of heart at the end. I see no such outcome here.
Oh for god sakes.

Mexico has national health insurance as several posters have pointed out.

I'm always disgusted at the santimony of those who defend criminal aliens while steadfastly insulting most Americans because they don't want to pay for them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jbcmh81 View Post
Except this is not about a simple difference in moral views. It's stating the fact that many people here blatantly seem to disregard all things related to empathy and moral reason. Even if you think that illegals are a burden on the economy, that shouldn't necessarily equate to the complete dismissal of the well-being of others. And speaking of religion, I have to wonder just how many people here consider themselves to be so and how they reconcile their personal beliefs.
It's not empathetic to punish our own poor people with decreased wages and overcrowed schools so you can feel good about yourself. More than half of illegals are from a country with a booming economy and national health insurance. Asking them to obey our immigration laws treats them like mature adults capable of following reasonable rather than small children who must be excused when they throw temper tantrums.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jbcmh81 View Post
No Americans are being denied medical care. The ER exists for everyone and hospitals are legally not allowed to turn people away. So your point is moot and a total fabrication.

As for health costs and insurance, that is our own creation and has very very little to do with immigration.
You may or may not know something about Mexico but you sure don't know anything at all if you believe Americans aren't being denied medical care. Hospitals turn people away all the time. Millions of our own citizenry go without health care all the time because they can't afford health care premiums. Many are going bankrupt because Mexican nationals like to use our health care system without paying for it.

Illegals aren't the only problem with the system but they sure aren't helping when they use our services without paying for them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jbcmh81 View Post
Everyone's circumstances are different. People make these huge assumptions only based on their own personal experience and like to apply it to everyone. I seriously doubt anyone on this forum grew up in a very poor country. I seriously doubt anyone on this forum had to make the kind of decision one makes when they or their family can no longer survive on the opportunities they have nearby. Americans, for the most part, live under a rock when it comes to really tough choices that people have to make in countries where there are people significantly worse off than anything we have here. This is not about wealth, to me. I am just not the kind of person that could look someone in the eye and tell them they're not worth the effort to help because they made the tough choice to come here without a piece of paper. I'm just not that cold-hearted or illogical. And given that I've actually lived in Mexico and seen it for myself, you can't tell me that I have a narrow view.
You're very cold hearted frankly. You don't care if your fellow citizens go without medical care or deal with overcrowed schools or decreased wages all so that Mexican nationals can make poor life choices and use America as a safety net. You fee free to gravely insult those very same Americans when they dare disagree with you.

You do all this so you can pat yourself on the back. You might want to stop. If you want to donate funds to help Mexican high school dropouts get more stuff then by all means do so. But forcing Americans to suffer for your santimony is not much of an argument.
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Old 01-07-2012, 03:12 PM
 
Location: Pa
20,310 posts, read 18,965,498 times
Reputation: 6517
Not sure what all the debate is about.
Do illegals as a group coct the tax payers of this county millions if not more in medical expenses?
YES
I think it is safe to assume that the majority of these expenses are not due to emergency life saving treatment.
Some have said that all countries will provide basic treatment regardless of ability to pay and that is completely false.
Some might but not all or even most.
Emergency care I would say that they would but they will also be looking at ways to be compensated for the costs.
I travel a lot and have used hospitals overseas. The first thing that I am asked is how I will pay for the treatment.
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Old 01-07-2012, 03:17 PM
 
3,493 posts, read 2,398,149 times
Reputation: 2345
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbcmh81 View Post
Your attempt to make this into me bashing Mexico is supremely ironic.

I don't despise the American people, are you kidding me? And I'm pretty sure America does have a culture where teens drop of out school and have kids. I'm pretty sure America does have an inordinate amount of residents on government assistance.

The problem is that, while both nations do have certain aspects of cultural irresponsibility, it makes less sense in the most powerful, richest nation on earth where almost no one grows up into the kind of poverty that a large portion of Mexicans do.
Eighty percent of all Americans have a high school diploma. Less than 50% of all illegals do. American teens are actually having fewer births than a generation ago.

The problem is that Mexico demands the right to ship their least able citizens here and demand that our own middle class pay for them. If that hurts our own poorest citizens Mexicans shrug. That's not fair and it's not sensible.

FYI, Mexico is not that poor. Mexico has the world's highest obesity rate actually:

Mexico's other enemy: Obesity rates triple in last 3 decades - CNN

Mexican nationals are not entitled to walk across the border without permission let alone claim access to our health care and welfare system just because they feel conditions in their country are less than ideal. Not legally and certainly not morally. I am truly sorry that you think otherwise.

If anything Mexico is a properous society. Mexicans should do far more to help the truly poor -- those who live on less than a $1.25 a day. What a shame that they don't!
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Old 01-07-2012, 04:22 PM
 
Location: Mexico City, formerly Columbus, Ohio
12,800 posts, read 12,831,751 times
Reputation: 5473
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eleanora1 View Post
A path that includes huge fines and leaving the country, not access to the American welfare system and a free college degree for Mexico's underclass.

Oh for god sakes.

Mexico has national health insurance as several posters have pointed out.

Yeah, we've already been over this, perhaps you should actually read the discussion.

I'm always disgusted at the santimony of those who defend criminal aliens while steadfastly insulting most Americans because they don't want to pay for them.

I'm not insulting you because you don't want to pay for someone's medical costs. This is a much more complex issue to me than that, and so is my disdain for how you arrived at your POV.

It's not empathetic to punish our own poor people with decreased wages and overcrowed schools so you can feel good about yourself. More than half of illegals are from a country with a booming economy and national health insurance. Asking them to obey our immigration laws treats them like mature adults capable of following reasonable rather than small children who must be excused when they throw temper tantrums.

Again, read the thread. Medical care is not the primary reason for illegal immigration. And the booming economies are why illegal immigration is now plummeting. They were not, however, always booming and this is a very recent phenomenon. I also wonder how reasonable you would be if you were in the same position. I doubt being reasonable would even cross your mind. Your position is born out of convenience, not experience.

You may or may not know something about Mexico but you sure don't know anything at all if you believe Americans aren't being denied medical care. Hospitals turn people away all the time. Millions of our own citizenry go without health care all the time because they can't afford health care premiums. Many are going bankrupt because Mexican nationals like to use our health care system without paying for it.

I think you are confusing lack of insurance with lack of access. No hospital can legally turn away someone in need of urgent care. However, if we are talking about long-term care, insurance comes into play, and that is a big issue with insurance companies refusing to cover certain things. However, illegals generally cannot get this kind of care either because of lack of insurance. So in fact, it's about the same for both groups. Medical care is available on an emergency basis, but something like a chronic disease typically has to be covered in some way by insurance. Except for the ER, it's not free for anyone, and the ER is not really "free" so much as available for people without medical coverage. I would imagine, however, that the vast majority of ER care is not from illegals, but from legal citizens.

Illegals aren't the only problem with the system but they sure aren't helping when they use our services without paying for them.

So what do you propose doing with our own citizens who abuse the system, which accounts for the majority of costs? This to me seems like a debate about whether to put out a candle or to put out a house fire.

You're very cold hearted frankly. You don't care if your fellow citizens go without medical care or deal with overcrowed schools or decreased wages all so that Mexican nationals can make poor life choices and use America as a safety net. You fee free to gravely insult those very same Americans when they dare disagree with you.

On what basis do you think I don't care? If I care about non-citizens not being able to get the help they need, I'm pretty sure I care about citizens as well. This is not an either-or for me like it seems to be for many of you. And what poor life choices are we talking about? Being born poor in the first place?

You do all this so you can pat yourself on the back. You might want to stop. If you want to donate funds to help Mexican high school dropouts get more stuff then by all means do so. But forcing Americans to suffer for your santimony is not much of an argument.
I take it I struck a nerve. Good. You should be held accountable for your opinions and falsification of reality.
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Old 01-07-2012, 04:33 PM
 
Location: Mexico City, formerly Columbus, Ohio
12,800 posts, read 12,831,751 times
Reputation: 5473
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eleanora1 View Post
Eighty percent of all Americans have a high school diploma. Less than 50% of all illegals do. American teens are actually having fewer births than a generation ago.

Link on HS education rates? And the birth rates are dropping in Mexico also. What's your point?

The problem is that Mexico demands the right to ship their least able citizens here and demand that our own middle class pay for them. If that hurts our own poorest citizens Mexicans shrug. That's not fair and it's not sensible.

It's really strange how simplistic these views are of Mexico-US relations and how most citizens view them.

FYI, Mexico is not that poor. Mexico has the world's highest obesity rate actually:

Mexico's other enemy: Obesity rates triple in last 3 decades - CNN

I'm not sure what obesity rates prove? There is a high link between obesity and poverty, because the poor tend to have less access to inexpensive, high quality foods, as well as less education about health. Also, it's no suprise that Mexico's rate shot up after NAFTA, when every American fast food company moved in. Traditional Mexican foods are not fattening and are high in protein, but they are being replaced over time by inexpensive McDonalds.

Mexican nationals are not entitled to walk across the border without permission let alone claim access to our health care and welfare system just because they feel conditions in their country are less than ideal. Not legally and certainly not morally. I am truly sorry that you think otherwise.

There is a difference between an ability and a necessity.

If anything Mexico is a properous society. Mexicans should do far more to help the truly poor -- those who live on less than a $1.25 a day. What a shame that they don't!
So what is your experience with Mexico?
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Old 01-07-2012, 05:41 PM
 
3,493 posts, read 2,398,149 times
Reputation: 2345
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbcmh81 View Post
I take it I struck a nerve. Good. You should be held accountable for your opinions and falsification of reality.
Oh for god sakes please give the smugness a rest. If it makes you feel any better I find your grasp on reality false and tenuous at best. How can you possibly assert that no American goes without health care when just about anyone living here knows this to be false? Are you a Republican pol? A Mexican national ignorant about this country? A spoiled college kid with no real world experience?



You did not answer the OP or my subsequent question.

As for what I know about Mexico I know Mexico is 34th worldwide in national income:

Median household income - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

That makes them richer per capita than most of the world. Do they have ANY responsibility to much of the world that is poorer than they are? Or does that particular responsibility only apply to Americans? You argue that Mexicans have some special right to break American immigration laws and get health care that Americans pay for. You further argue that Americans should be forced to let them come here even if this does not benefit us. You argue this despite the fact that most Mexicans, contrary to your assertions are not all poor, all that lacking in per capita income by world standards or even particularly calorically deprived. You argue this even though the people in question are largely high school dropouts who are not needed in our economy and punish our own poor.

WHY?

Please answer this question. Without resorting to cheap emotionalism and repetitions of the simplistic mantra that the people in question are human beings and anyone who does not agree with their actions some sort of horrible and evil person . . .
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