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Old 01-07-2012, 06:34 PM
 
387 posts, read 271,214 times
Reputation: 40

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eleanora1 View Post
Oh for god sakes please give the smugness a rest. If it makes you feel any better I find your grasp on reality false and tenuous at best. How can you possibly assert that no American goes without health care when just about anyone living here knows this to be false? Are you a Republican pol? A Mexican national ignorant about this country? A spoiled college kid with no real world experience?

Another myth. Americans have exactly the same rights to emergency health care as an illegal alien. Any person, thats any, has the right to necessary emergency care...to be stabilized and then released to a suitable situation.

Quote:
You did not answer the OP or my subsequent question.

As for what I know about Mexico I know Mexico is 34th worldwide in national income:

Median household income - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

That makes them richer per capita than most of the world. Do they have ANY responsibility to much of the world that is poorer than they are? Or does that particular responsibility only apply to Americans? You argue that Mexicans have some special right to break American immigration laws and get health care that Americans pay for. You further argue that Americans should be forced to let them come here even if this does not benefit us. You argue this despite the fact that most Mexicans, contrary to your assertions are not all poor, all that lacking in per capita income by world standards or even particularly calorically deprived. You argue this even though the people in question are largely high school dropouts who are not needed in our economy and punish our own poor.

WHY?

Please answer this question. Without resorting to cheap emotionalism and repetitions of the simplistic mantra that the people in question are human beings and anyone who does not agree with their actions some sort of horrible and evil person . . .
Mexico is a heavily classed society. The result is that the bottom third is vastly worse off than our bottom third. The middle third resembles our low middle class and the upper third resembles our top 50%. The upper two thirds have no particular desire to mitigate the problems of the bottom third. Why should they? It is not their problem and they like cheap workers.

That societal position drives the lower third to immigrate to the US. That is the only practical way out they see. Revolution? Been tried works badly.

We should of course have never let them in. I fully agree that under educated Mexicans are not high on the needed skills list for the USA.

But again they are here and well integrated into the Hispanic community. They ain't leaving.

So you want more? Leave things as they are.

Want less? Get the problem down to a manageable size and then sock it to them on the enforcement side.
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Old 01-07-2012, 06:57 PM
 
47,576 posts, read 58,858,290 times
Reputation: 22174
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbcmh81 View Post
Link on % of illegals that expect free health care in the US?
Don't have it -- but every single illegal who crosses the border or overstays a visa and does not buy himself/herself a health insurance policy certainly does expect to receive free health care in the event he or she should need health care. That's most illegals.

And the other thing, many illegals will gladly accept very low wages and no employer provided health care insurance -- just to get here and have the free care available.
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Old 01-07-2012, 07:02 PM
 
387 posts, read 271,214 times
Reputation: 40
Quote:
Originally Posted by malamute View Post
Don't have it -- but every single illegal who crosses the border or overstays a visa and does not buy himself/herself a health insurance policy certainly does expect to receive free health care in the event he or she should need health care. That's most illegals.

And the other thing, many illegals will gladly accept very low wages and no employer provided health care insurance -- just to get here and have the free care available.
No they don't...they expect to take an asparin and continue. When they become seriously ill they will go to the emergency room as they lack any other course. But again they don't expect that to happen.
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Old 01-07-2012, 07:39 PM
 
Location: California
2,477 posts, read 1,715,868 times
Reputation: 299
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbcmh81 View Post
Everyone's circumstances are different. People make these huge assumptions only based on their own personal experience and like to apply it to everyone. I seriously doubt anyone on this forum grew up in a very poor country. I seriously doubt anyone on this forum had to make the kind of decision one makes when they or their family can no longer survive on the opportunities they have nearby. Americans, for the most part, live under a rock when it comes to really tough choices that people have to make in countries where there are people significantly worse off than anything we have here. This is not about wealth, to me. I am just not the kind of person that could look someone in the eye and tell them they're not worth the effort to help because they made the tough choice to come here without a piece of paper. I'm just not that cold-hearted or illogical. And given that I've actually lived in Mexico and seen it for myself, you can't tell me that I have a narrow view.
Many on here would feed them, cloth them, house them, and help them get on their feet, but they would be told they should go home and work on their problems there. You make many assumptions of the people on here. Many have grown up in tough circumstances, not much different then those that come here illegally. Your perception of yourself isn't something you need to project on to others, quite frankly we could careless how you feel towards ourselves. As for having lived south of the border, some of us on here have lived in Latin America, so don't think you are the only one. From your other comments that you may be going back there soon for a job, glad to here it, while you're there let them know that if they come here without authorization they will be exploited, treated like slaves, and deported, so save their money by not paying the coyote to cross, I mean if they can come up with the $1500 down payment they could have lived at home decently for a year for that amount.

Last edited by Liquid Reigns; 01-07-2012 at 07:55 PM..
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Old 01-07-2012, 07:52 PM
 
14,307 posts, read 11,172,244 times
Reputation: 2130
Quote:
Originally Posted by Liquid Reigns View Post
Many on here would feed them, cloth them, house them, and help them get on their feet, but they would be told they should go home and work on their problems there. You make many assumptions of the people on here. Many have grown up in tough circumstances, not much different then those that come here illegally. Your perception of yourself isn't something you need to project on to others, quite frankly we could careless how you feel towards ourselves. As for having lived south of the border, some of us on here have lived in Latin America, so don't think you are the only one. From your other comments that you may be going back there soon for a job, glad to here it, while you're there let them know that if they come here without authorization they will be exploited, treated like slaves, and deported, so save their money by not paying the coyote to cross, I mean if they can come up with the $1500 down payment the could have lived at home decently for a year for that amount.
Agreed, and why is it that they don't see themselves as the heartless ones since illegals are taking jobs from needy Americans who want to feed their own families? They are also increasing our taxes from having to cover their social costs. Just birthing one baby on our dime is an enormous expense. What little income taxes they pay does not cover that nor their other medical expenses, education, etc. Why is it that they have no problem with these illegals stealing or forging documents to work? Those are felonies.

We are the most generous nation on earth helping others in their "own" countries and taking in more than a million legal immigrants a year. Yet we get called racists, xenophobes and heartless POS.
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Old 01-07-2012, 08:05 PM
 
3,807 posts, read 4,818,708 times
Reputation: 3468
Quote:
Originally Posted by malamute View Post
What's wrong with Mexico? Don't forget it's part of the same land mass as the USA and Canada -- only with far better weather, beautiful coasts, a longer growing season.

What's wrong with Mexico that all progress stops at our southern border? Who are the corrupt ones?

You may despise the American people with all your might -- but it's not Americans that built a "disadvantaged" nation. It's not American culture that encourages so many teenagers to drop out of school and start having babies they can never afford unless they sneak into another country. We take care of our own.

It's not the land, the water, the air that's wrong with Mexico. It's the culture of irresponsibility. Having many children before being able to afford them. The whole excuse of the illegals -- "I had to break the laws or my 8, 9 children would starve!!".

The American people have these nice programs in place -- free health care for all, the best free health care anyone could want. So who are the corrupt ones? Not the Americans -- but you might want to look at those who never did anything for their nation but leave it, who don't build schools or hospitals for themselves.
R U SERIOUS????

children having children is rampant here(especially in our poorer areas)---we americans have taken the culture of irresponsibility to new heights and have extended this everywhere far surpassing anything any poor country has done
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Old 01-07-2012, 08:53 PM
 
3,493 posts, read 2,390,175 times
Reputation: 2345
Quote:
Originally Posted by libertylover7 View Post
Another myth. Americans have exactly the same rights to emergency health care as an illegal alien. Any person, thats any, has the right to necessary emergency care...to be stabilized and then released to a suitable situation.
Do you understand that ONCE DISCHARGED, UNLIKE ILLEGALS, THEY GET BILLED?

Or has that point escaped you? The illegals in question are not paying their bills. Unlike uninsured Americans. They expect hospitals to just write the off the cost of their medical care. How is that fair?

Quote:
Mexico is a heavily classed society. The result is that the bottom third is vastly worse off than our bottom third. The middle third resembles our low middle class and the upper third resembles our top 50%. The upper two thirds have no particular desire to mitigate the problems of the bottom third. Why should they? It is not their problem and they like cheap workers.
So Mexicans should escape responsibility for their own society's problems and just ship their dysfunctional people here? Why is the underclass in Mexico not Mexico's problem but America's problem?

That's ridiculous. Why do you hold Americans responsible but never once utter a single word of disgust for Mexico's citizens? Why the double standard? Why are Mexicans off the hook for the problems but Americans are expected to fix them?

Quote:
That societal position drives the lower third to immigrate to the US. That is the only practical way out they see. Revolution? Been tried works badly.
There's nothing practical about breaking into another country without the skills to fully support yourself there. I'm sorry too many people from Mexico feel that way.

Quote:
We should of course have never let them in. I fully agree that under educated Mexicans are not high on the needed skills list for the USA.

But again they are here and well integrated into the Hispanic community. They ain't leaving.
And yet Obama has deported hundreds of thousands of people. They're not Americans and they will be sent home.

Quote:
So you want more? Leave things as they are.

Want less? Get the problem down to a manageable size and then sock it to them on the enforcement side.
I want our laws enforced. You want amnesty. The DREAM act nonsense of free college degrees for their kids and amnesty for them is not going to do that.
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Old 01-07-2012, 09:29 PM
 
387 posts, read 271,214 times
Reputation: 40
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eleanora1 View Post
Do you understand that ONCE DISCHARGED, UNLIKE ILLEGALS, THEY GET BILLED?

Or has that point escaped you? The illegals in question are not paying their bills. Unlike uninsured Americans. They expect hospitals to just write the off the cost of their medical care. How is that fair?
The illegals, just like the American poor, get billed. They just can't pay the bill...just like the American poor. They often don't have any credit rating so it can't get destroyed.

Quote:
So Mexicans should escape responsibility for their own society's problems and just ship their dysfunctional people here? Why is the underclass in Mexico not Mexico's problem but America's problem?

That's ridiculous. Why do you hold Americans responsible but never once utter a single word of disgust for Mexico's citizens? Why the double standard? Why are Mexicans off the hook for the problems but Americans are expected to fix them?
The Mexicans don't consider it a problem. They like things fine as they are. They like having an underclass and would be very uncomfortable without it. You and I can point out that it is an awful and disgusting thing to do to part of your society...but it is customary and widely accepted.

They don't ship anyone here. They would prefer they not go to the US. It destabilizes the class relationship.

We could of course invade and end all this if we wished. But that would of course be a version of amnesty.

Quote:
There's nothing practical about breaking into another country without the skills to fully support yourself there. I'm sorry too many people from Mexico feel that way.


And yet Obama has deported hundreds of thousands of people. They're not Americans and they will be sent home.

I want our laws enforced. You want amnesty. The DREAM act nonsense of free college degrees for their kids and amnesty for them is not going to do that.
I want an end to the entry of under educated and unskilled Mexicans. I believe that requires some arrangement with those already here to stop the support of new arrivals and to narrow the numbers to something that can be tracked down and stopped.

And of all the really dumb and outrageous myths...the DREAM act provides a path to citizenship for those who graduate college or successfully complete a military tour. It has nothing to do with college tuition.

And it is a real shame that we can't discuss this stuff rationally because you cannot understand such a simple point.

I find it particularly strange with you as I have seen you be rational and sane elsewhere. But apparently you are simply too emotional about illegals to do that here. Too bad...and you lend yourself to the irrationality of others.
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Old 01-08-2012, 12:47 PM
 
3,493 posts, read 2,390,175 times
Reputation: 2345
Quote:
Originally Posted by libertylover7 View Post
The illegals, just like the American poor, get billed. They just can't pay the bill...just like the American poor. They often don't have any credit rating so it can't get destroyed.
And the American poor get destroyed by medical bills they can't pay. They have a decreased ability to find a job because of a bad credit rating that also effects their ability to rent an apartment.

The double standard is disgusting. Mexico should be billed for the care of Mexicans. Do you disagree with this assertion?

Quote:
The Mexicans don't consider it a problem. They like things fine as they are. They like having an underclass and would be very uncomfortable without it. You and I can point out that it is an awful and disgusting thing to do to part of your society...but it is customary and widely accepted.
I'm amused that you make excuses for their behavior while steadfastly condemning Americans who dare object to this behavior.

Quote:
They don't ship anyone here. They would prefer they not go to the US. It destabilizes the class relationship.

We could of course invade and end all this if we wished. But that would of course be a version of amnesty.
Yes they do. Mexico's government and people do everything they can to encourage their high school dropouts to come here. If they do everything they can to encourage them to come we can surely do what we can to encourage them to go home where they belong.

Quote:
I want an end to the entry of under educated and unskilled Mexicans. I believe that requires some arrangement with those already here to stop the support of new arrivals and to narrow the numbers to something that can be tracked down and stopped.
Giving amnesty to those already here will not accomplish that task. All that it will is bring more people here. We owe those people nothing let alone some sort of "arrangement."

Quote:
And of all the really dumb and outrageous myths...the DREAM act provides a path to citizenship for those who graduate college or successfully complete a military tour. It has nothing to do with college tuition.
The California DREAM act includes free tuition for Mexican nationals. That's a fact. "A path to citizenship" is nothing more than amnesty that will attract yet more illegals.

Quote:
And it is a real shame that we can't discuss this stuff rationally because you cannot understand such a simple point.
Where is your rational discussion? You constantly contradict yourself. You say you want no more low skilled Mexican migrants yet you support measures like the DREAM act and "accommodations" for illegals already here that will bring in even more such people.

Quote:
I find it particularly strange with you as I have seen you be rational and sane elsewhere. But apparently you are simply too emotional about illegals to do that here. Too bad...and you lend yourself to the irrationality of others.
I'm not the one advocating open amnesty while simultaneously proclaming my desire to see fewer illegals. Talk about strange . . .
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Old 01-08-2012, 01:27 PM
 
Location: Too far from home.
8,743 posts, read 5,564,750 times
Reputation: 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by goldengrain View Post

Certainly, these people should be shipped back to the countries that they came from. The trip to Mexico is a lot shorter than to China, no?
Bravo!!! Post No. 3 and in with the Mexicans!!!! I didn't even bother to read the rest of the posts because this is where everyone probably took this straight to the Mexican-bashing fest.

Mexicans make up for 58% of the illegals in the US. Why not mention the other 42%??? Are they any different??
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