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Old 01-19-2012, 06:46 PM
 
Location: California
2,477 posts, read 1,711,133 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by libertylover7 View Post
Nope. Happens commonly in temporary agency or rent an employee arrangements. The client also gets sued and pays as well as the agent. Contractors would be no different.
What do you mean, Nope? Discrimination, depending on type, falls under the type or "class". it must also be proven, not just based on what the person thinks is the reason. What you are doing is taking phrases from the EEO manual and using them in the context you choose vs what they are in context as to saying. "At will" employment allows for firing for any reason, as long as it is not under one of the "classes" that are referred as discrimination. Rent has nothing to do with anything. What you are referring to is a hiring discrimination such as age, nationality, etc. Your at the opposite end of the spectrum here, which the question was does a homeowner have rights in allowing workers from a hired contractor to remain or be removed from their job location. The home owner has the right to make demands of the contractor and his employees, the contractor can choose to accept those demands or deny those demands, but if they are denied the home owner can fire the contractor.

Last edited by Liquid Reigns; 01-19-2012 at 06:58 PM..
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Old 01-19-2012, 07:22 PM
 
20,611 posts, read 12,278,864 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by libertylover7 View Post
Nope. Happens commonly in temporary agency or rent an employee arrangements. The client also gets sued and pays as well as the agent. Contractors would be no different.
Ask that everyone show a US driver's license or state ID. That would chase off illegal aliens almost everywhere.
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Old 01-19-2012, 07:44 PM
 
387 posts, read 270,592 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Liquid Reigns View Post
What do you mean, Nope? Discrimination, depending on type, falls under the type or "class". it must also be proven, not just based on what the person thinks is the reason. What you are doing is taking phrases from the EEO manual and using them in the context you choose vs what they are in context as to saying. "At will" employment allows for firing for any reason, as long as it is not under one of the "classes" that are referred as discrimination. Rent has nothing to do with anything. What you are referring to is a hiring discrimination such as age, nationality, etc. Your at the opposite end of the spectrum here, which the question was does a homeowner have rights in allowing workers from a hired contractor to remain or be removed from their job location. The home owner has the right to make demands of the contractor and his employees, the contractor can choose to accept those demands or deny those demands, but if they are denied the home owner can fire the contractor.
We are clearly and precisely discussing a protected class. If the contractor accepts demands that are outside the law from the homeowner he and the homeowner will get sued. Ordering a provider to violate a law is a violation.

You understand what a "rent an employee" operation is? I don't think so...
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Old 01-19-2012, 09:19 PM
 
20,611 posts, read 12,278,864 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by libertylover7 View Post
We are clearly and precisely discussing a protected class. If the contractor accepts demands that are outside the law from the homeowner he and the homeowner will get sued. Ordering a provider to violate a law is a violation.

You understand what a "rent an employee" operation is? I don't think so...
If the homeowner DOESN'T want that contractor because of his illegal alien crew; he can fire him. I would.
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Old 01-19-2012, 09:31 PM
 
387 posts, read 270,592 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Packard fan View Post
If the homeowner DOESN'T want that contractor because of his illegal alien crew; he can fire him. I would.
Perhaps. But I doubt it. Few, if any, contractors will sign with any clause giving the client the right to quit for such a reason unless it is spelled out precisely...and then you have the problem of your down and progress payments.

It is pretty much impractical.

If you are reasonably sure you might call the immigration people and get them to take a look.
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Old 01-20-2012, 08:44 AM
 
Location: California
2,477 posts, read 1,711,133 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by libertylover7 View Post
We are clearly and precisely discussing a protected class. If the contractor accepts demands that are outside the law from the homeowner he and the homeowner will get sued. Ordering a provider to violate a law is a violation.

You understand what a "rent an employee" operation is? I don't think so...
You mean "employee for rent"?
Employees for rent - employee leasing companies provide permanent staff; includes related article on leasing company selection | Nation's Business | Find Articles
Has nothing to do with a contractor and home owner.
You are proclaiming that home owners who ask that certain things be done is a violation of the employees rights, where in if you read the links I provided you would realize you are wrong if you think that a home owner can not ask that only English speakers be on his/her site, or that no illegal aliens be used. Neither are a protected class.

Quote:
Originally Posted by libertylover7 View Post
Perhaps. But I doubt it. Few, if any, contractors will sign with any clause giving the client the right to quit for such a reason unless it is spelled out precisely...and then you have the problem of your down and progress payments.

It is pretty much impractical.

If you are reasonably sure you might call the immigration people and get them to take a look.
The contract doesn't need to have any "clause" in it. I, as a California State Licensed Contractor, need to comply with the clients requests or they can fire me for any reason. Down and progress payments, if any, may be forfeited, which could be a clause in the contract, depending on State, California it is not required to be in it, it is understood that he home owner pay for time and materials up to the point of firing the contractor.
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Old 01-21-2012, 08:05 AM
 
4,135 posts, read 9,116,913 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Falconman View Post
When I had a new roof put on my house I suspected the company might be working illegals but didnt know for sure. I didnt want to take work away from the american citizen who owned the company so here is what I did. I told the owner that if I saw anyone of his workers who didnt speak english or appeared to be an alien I would require FULL LEGAL DOCUMENTATION of the workers ON MY PROPERTY OR HE WOULDNT BE PAID. He of course didnt like it but afterall it is MY property and MY MONEY that is being paid for the service. If we all would do little things like this it would help teach the employers that crime does not pay.If he had illegals on his payroll he made sure they didnt show up at my place .I make the rules here.

Don't know where you live, but when I hire a local company in WNY ( like we did for the roof), all the roofers were local kids .
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Old 01-21-2012, 08:59 AM
 
387 posts, read 270,592 times
Reputation: 40
Quote:
Originally Posted by Liquid Reigns View Post
You mean "employee for rent"?
Employees for rent - employee leasing companies provide permanent staff; includes related article on leasing company selection | Nation's Business | Find Articles
Has nothing to do with a contractor and home owner.
You are proclaiming that home owners who ask that certain things be done is a violation of the employees rights, where in if you read the links I provided you would realize you are wrong if you think that a home owner can not ask that only English speakers be on his/her site, or that no illegal aliens be used. Neither are a protected class.

The contract doesn't need to have any "clause" in it. I, as a California State Licensed Contractor, need to comply with the clients requests or they can fire me for any reason. Down and progress payments, if any, may be forfeited, which could be a clause in the contract, depending on State, California it is not required to be in it, it is understood that he home owner pay for time and materials up to the point of firing the contractor.
Employee rental agency are a very good analog to the contractor. There is much case law about them.

English speakers only would be considered a violation of the rights of the non-english speakers rights unless their was a bonafide reason. The clients wishes would not work.

The right to fire a contractor is much more convoluted than you suggest. Having been involved in it a couple of times you are exaggerating.

And the mechanics lien - what a wonderful tool.
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Old 01-21-2012, 09:31 AM
 
6,122 posts, read 5,147,846 times
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The contractors around here hire the Amish to do roofing and construction. They get superb work
and don't have to worry about illegals.
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Old 01-21-2012, 10:29 AM
 
Location: California
2,477 posts, read 1,711,133 times
Reputation: 299
Quote:
Originally Posted by libertylover7 View Post
Employee rental agency are a very good analog to the contractor. There is much case law about them.

English speakers only would be considered a violation of the rights of the non-english speakers rights unless their was a bonafide reason. The clients wishes would not work.

The right to fire a contractor is much more convoluted than you suggest. Having been involved in it a couple of times you are exaggerating.

And the mechanics lien - what a wonderful tool.
Sure there is, however most home contractors do not use them here in California. Exaggerating? LMFAO A home owner has the right to request and demand that only people who speak English are on the job site (this is not a violation of the EEO), they can also demand that no illegal aliens be used (persons picked up locally from the Home Depot - again, not an EEO violation). The right to fire a contractor is not that convoluted at all (time consuming, yes), one merely needs to address with the contractor (letters and phone calls) any discrepancies they run into and document it (again - depends on type of home improvement as not all are the same), at which point if the contractor is not meeting the requirements of the contract one can file a complaint with the State Licensing Agency and go through mediation or through a court of law (depending on State), this is also why Contractors are required to have Bonds (to repair or complete any job they fail through their contract). As for the Mechanics Lien
Quote:
(California Law is the reference source, other states may have different rules) Some limitations of mechanics' liens for contractors are that in order to take advantage of the lien rights, the contractor must wait until any of the conditions occur, otherwise the lien will be considered premature: a) The work is completed according to the contracted scope of work, b) The project has stopped (cessation), or c) The person is prevented from finishing the work (terminated).
Each of these required events occur at the end of the project life-cycle, (or at the end of the scope of work for the subcontractor, the project may be far from completed) and the end of the project may not be remotely close to the actual time when the work was performed (and the labor and materials had been paid out of pocket for the work by the contractor).
Also, the work must go directly toward the work of improvement of the property. This may seem obvious, but there are numerous construction costs that are not subject to mechanics' liens. A portion of construction costs may not qualify for a mechanic's lien because the work did not improve the property. A good example are items that are not intended to be permanent, but nevertheless, necessary in the course of construction. A temporary construction fence may be required, may serve a valuable function in safety and security, but is never expected to become part of the realty, so therefore is not a cost that is permitted under a mechanic's lien.
The attractive nature of the mechanic's lien is that the lien is secured by real property and the property can be sold in order to pay the lien. This is powerful tool, but not always efficient.In reality, this is a drawn out process that is not very efficient. However, given the economic conditions, and that lenders' usually have priority, the sale of the property may not be sufficient to pay for the value of the lien.
What is often overlooked is that the contractor is now financing the project when they perform work and do not receive prompt payment for that work. The contractor is now tying up valuable capital that could be used elsewhere while waiting for the end of a project. In addition, the contractor must bear the cost of litigation in order to enforce their mechanic's lien rights. For disputes of a minor value, a mechanic's lien is not going to be a cost effective method of obtaining payment for services.
I would suggest reading your States Business and Professions Codes, for California these are the pertinent ones:
Quote:
In the State of California, the Business and Professions (B &P) Code provides protection for consumers who hire contractors to perform home improvement projects. The following is a brief summary of applicable sections of law that relate to the timely and successful completion of home improvement projects.
* B&P Code Section 7151.2, Home Improvement Contract, defines a home improvement contract as follows:
“Home improvement contract” means an agreement, contained in one or more documents, between a contractor and an owner or between a contractor and a tenant . . and includes all labor, services, and materials to be furnished and performed there under.
* B&P Code Section 7159, Requirements for Home Improvement Contracts, identifies the projects for which a home improvement contract is required, outlines the contract requirements, and lists the items that shall be included in the contract or may be provided as an attachment. Among home improvement contract requirements are the following subdivisions:
* 7159(c)(3)(A) Before any work is started, the contractor shall give the buyer a copy of the contract signed and dated by both the contractor and the buyer. The buyer’s receipt of the copy of the contract initiates the buyer’s rights to cancel the contract pursuant to Sections 1689.5 to 1689.14, inclusive, of the Civil Code.
* 7159(d)(9)(B) Each progress payment shall be stated in dollars and cents and specifically reference the amount of work or services to be performed or any materials and equipment to be supplied.
* 7159(d)(10)(C) The approximate date on which work will be commenced.
* 7159(d)(11)(B) The approximate date of completion.
* 7108. Diversion of funds or property received for prosecution or completion of a specific construction project or operation, or for a specified purpose in the prosecution or completion of any construction project or operation, or failure substantially to account for the application or use of such funds or property on the construction project or operation for which such funds or property were received constitutes a cause for disciplinary action.
Not all home improvement contracts are the same, some have more legal protections and info for the homeowner's rights than others as it is the contractors responsibility to inform as per California Law.

Last edited by Liquid Reigns; 01-21-2012 at 10:45 AM..
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