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Old 01-31-2012, 11:07 PM
 
4,749 posts, read 3,600,892 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chicagonut View Post
There are a couple points you are forgetting. 1. They don't take care of themselves. They are being supported by our taxes. 2. We don't need these Dreamies/illegals staying here to compete for our jobs and resources. Let em go back and compete in their own countries.
Oh to hell with your taxes. If you were that upset about your wasted tax money, why aren't you bristling with anger and making every other post about the $3+ trillion in Iraq spent over the past ten years and counting???? Illegals are a drop in the bucket compared to the grand larceny committed many times over by 'legal' shysters on Wall Street and K Street. This is not about money. If it were, you'd be barking somewhere else.
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Old 02-01-2012, 06:14 AM
 
20,611 posts, read 12,971,311 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chickenfriedbananas View Post
Oh to hell with your taxes. If you were that upset about your wasted tax money, why aren't you bristling with anger and making every other post about the $3+ trillion in Iraq spent over the past ten years and counting???? Illegals are a drop in the bucket compared to the grand larceny committed many times over by 'legal' shysters on Wall Street and K Street. This is not about money. If it were, you'd be barking somewhere else.
Which DOESN'T change the fact that ILLEGAL aliens are still money pits and we're are also discussing BILLIONS with a B in dollars.
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Old 02-01-2012, 06:21 AM
 
14,307 posts, read 11,507,446 times
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Originally Posted by Packard fan View Post
Which DOESN'T change the fact that ILLEGAL aliens are still money pits and we're are also discussing BILLIONS with a B in dollars.
Exactly. When backed into a corner the advocates for illegal aliens can't handle the truth of what they are costing us so they resort to a strawman argument about other wasted tax dollars. I want ALL wasted tax dollars to end as I am sure all Americans do and the cost of illegals is one of those big wastes. But this is the illegal immigration forum not about other wasted taxes unrelated to illegal immigration.
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Old 02-01-2012, 08:41 AM
 
4,749 posts, read 3,600,892 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Packard fan View Post
Which DOESN'T change the fact that ILLEGAL aliens are still money pits and we're are also discussing BILLIONS with a B in dollars.
Yeah, but the fact that every other post here expresses outrage over the pennies on the dollar 'wasted' on illegals as compared to the money that gets wasted on other things is telling. You seem awfully committed to discussing this particular type of 'money pit' that is rather small by comparison to the gargantuan fiscal black holes that have been created by corruption you have most likely voted for. That would be my point...if you get it.
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Old 02-01-2012, 09:13 AM
 
3,493 posts, read 2,469,099 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chickenfriedbananas View Post
I don't think anyone here is arguing that the U.S. isn't generous enough with its immigration policies. The first post I made on this thread made it clear (I thought) that I was against immigration and that I agree that more needs to be done to discourage illegal immigrants from coming in the first place. And the good news is, I think we're actually doing that. E-verify, for example, is a great idea if it's used. If all 50 states and the federal government impose stiff penalties for not using an e-verify type system or something similar to it, that would probably cut down on a lot of the problems, which are really one of looking the other way while knowingly tolerating firms that hire illegal migrants.

There is nothing racist or wrong with being against illegal immigration in general. Arguing against stronger borders is a rational position to take. But the fact is that there are special circumstances. Not everyone's circumstances are the same and not everyone deserves to be treated the same, and that principle is actually something the state department has long recognized when deciding on if and where to deport illegal immigrants from, say, Cuba or other despotic regimes -- illegals can stay on humanitarian grounds because sending them back would mean risking death. And we long ago agreed as a nation - at least at the official level, and at least people interested in the values that this country supposedly espouses - that it can make exceptions for 'illegals' on humanitarian grounds.

I see the same thing when I look at say someone who came to the U.S. as an infant or even an adolescent. To say that they 'chose' to break the law is ignorant of the facts at best and disingenuous at worst. They chose to remain a part of their family in coming here, and they have made a choice to remain a part of their community and to pursue a livelihood in a place in which they have learned to adapt and survive. To throw them back is like taking a tamed zoo animal and tossing it back into the Serengeti and expecting it to flourish, never mind the fact it never learned how to survive in that sort of rugged environment. It's cruel, and it's un-American.
More than half of all illegals, including many DREAMies are from Mexico. Mexico is the world's 12th largest economy. They have a 5% unemployment rate, the world's richest man and national health insurance. By world standards they are not starving. Why is it so wrong to ask Mexican nationals to go live in Mexico? Mexico is not Nazi Germany. Young Mexicans do not have an inherent right to break our immigration laws and then demand the right to a free college degree and American citizenship.

I'm sorry that you seem to think that Mexico is some sort of crazy jungle and that Mexican illegals are tamed zoo animals. That's a completely nutty analogy.
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Old 02-01-2012, 09:20 AM
 
Location: Pa
20,310 posts, read 19,432,881 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chickenfriedbananas View Post
I don't think anyone here is arguing that the U.S. isn't generous enough with its immigration policies. The first post I made on this thread made it clear (I thought) that I was against immigration and that I agree that more needs to be done to discourage illegal immigrants from coming in the first place. And the good news is, I think we're actually doing that. E-verify, for example, is a great idea if it's used. If all 50 states and the federal government impose stiff penalties for not using an e-verify type system or something similar to it, that would probably cut down on a lot of the problems, which are really one of looking the other way while knowingly tolerating firms that hire illegal migrants.

There is nothing racist or wrong with being against illegal immigration in general. Arguing against stronger borders is a rational position to take. But the fact is that there are special circumstances. Not everyone's circumstances are the same and not everyone deserves to be treated the same, and that principle is actually something the state department has long recognized when deciding on if and where to deport illegal immigrants from, say, Cuba or other despotic regimes -- illegals can stay on humanitarian grounds because sending them back would mean risking death. And we long ago agreed as a nation - at least at the official level, and at least people interested in the values that this country supposedly espouses - that it can make exceptions for 'illegals' on humanitarian grounds.

I see the same thing when I look at say someone who came to the U.S. as an infant or even an adolescent. To say that they 'chose' to break the law is ignorant of the facts at best and disingenuous at worst. They chose to remain a part of their family in coming here, and they have made a choice to remain a part of their community and to pursue a livelihood in a place in which they have learned to adapt and survive. To throw them back is like taking a tamed zoo animal and tossing it back into the Serengeti and expecting it to flourish, never mind the fact it never learned how to survive in that sort of rugged environment. It's cruel, and it's un-American.
You might have a valid point if say the child were raised in say an asian neighborhood by asian foster parents. Typically illegals tend to seek their own and associate with their own. Typically illegals speak their native language in the home. The fact so many spanish speaking teachers are required for these kids proves the point thatlanguage would not be a difficulty for these kids. Culture they should understand from living with their parents and socializing with others from their ethnic group.
In fact it should be no more a burden than say their parents moving from one area of the USA to another because the state cracked down on illegals.
Here is a better analogy for you.
Its like taking a bear that has become a problem and moving it to another area.
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Old 02-01-2012, 09:21 AM
 
14,307 posts, read 11,507,446 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eleanora1 View Post
More than half of all illegals, including many DREAMies are from Mexico. Mexico is the world's 12th largest economy. They have a 5% unemployment rate, the world's richest man and national health insurance. By world standards they are not starving. Why is it so wrong to ask Mexican nationals to go live in Mexico? Mexico is not Nazi Germany. Young Mexicans do not have an inherent right to break our immigration laws and then demand the right to a free college degree and American citizenship.

I'm sorry that you seem to think that Mexico is some sort of crazy jungle and that Mexican illegals are tamed zoo animals. That's a completely nutty analogy.
Exactly. You said it well. How is it inhumane to send illegal Mexicans back to Mexico? Also the drug cartels only operate in certain areas. Most areas of Mexico are safe. If it's so dangerous and inhumane to go back to Mexico then why aren't they claiming refugee status like the Cubans are? Simple, because the above isn't true of most of Mexico. Most illegal Mexicans are only coming here for the larger dollars and benefits they can suck out of our tax coffers.
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Old 02-01-2012, 09:23 AM
 
Location: Pa
20,310 posts, read 19,432,881 times
Reputation: 6523
Quote:
Originally Posted by chickenfriedbananas View Post
Yeah, but the fact that every other post here expresses outrage over the pennies on the dollar 'wasted' on illegals as compared to the money that gets wasted on other things is telling. You seem awfully committed to discussing this particular type of 'money pit' that is rather small by comparison to the gargantuan fiscal black holes that have been created by corruption you have most likely voted for. That would be my point...if you get it.
This is the illegal immigration forum. We are supposed to be focused on and talking about illegals. I post a lot in in politics and controversies. Thats where we talk about the other forms of waste.
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Old 02-01-2012, 09:26 AM
 
Location: Pa
20,310 posts, read 19,432,881 times
Reputation: 6523
Quote:
Originally Posted by chickenfriedbananas View Post
Oh to hell with your taxes. If you were that upset about your wasted tax money, why aren't you bristling with anger and making every other post about the $3+ trillion in Iraq spent over the past ten years and counting???? Illegals are a drop in the bucket compared to the grand larceny committed many times over by 'legal' shysters on Wall Street and K Street. This is not about money. If it were, you'd be barking somewhere else.
Once again this is the illegal immigration forum. We bristle about tax dollars wasted on illegals here because the topic of this forum is illegal immigration. Some of us actually care about all wasted dollars. We post about the various forms of waste in the appropriate forums.
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Old 02-01-2012, 09:31 AM
 
Location: Maryland
15,179 posts, read 16,222,944 times
Reputation: 3029
Quote:
Originally Posted by chickenfriedbananas View Post
Yes, but the reality is that there are illegals who come here as children, grow up here, and make this the only home they've ever really known and cared for. I don't see why they should be automatically deported. It could be argued that they didn't even knowingly violate immigration laws, given their age and lack of maturity (in many cases).
Yes, many were brought here as children, some even infants. But, that should not entitle them to legalization, in-state tuition, and a path to citizenship. While they certainly were not responsible for being brought here by their parents, the fact remains, the DREAM Act will reward them for their parents' decision to violate our laws. That is not a solution. Rewarding illegal aliens only serves as an incentive for even more illegal immigration. It certainly is not a deterrent. Then what? Do we simply continue to legalize anyone who entered this country as a child?

Quote:
Originally Posted by chickenfriedbananas View Post
I'm not saying that each and every one of these children ought to be allowed to stay, either. But the law isn't always fair or even wise, and I think there may be cases where we might want to make exceptions and allow some who are technically 'illegal' to stay.
Please explain how our immigration laws are unfair and unwise. Also, which illegals should we make the exceptions without it being considered unfair to others? As currently written, the DREAM Act would not only legalize illegal alien college students, but also all illegal aliens enrolled in K-12. We certainly can't legalize minors without also legalizing their parents, can we?

Quote:
Originally Posted by chickenfriedbananas View Post
The guy who was interviewed in the article, for instance...a college graduate and probably someone who could easily be productive and contribute in some way to society here. It makes no sense to send him back to a country he doesn't even know versus keeping him here in a place he knows as well as anyone one of us.
Yes, the guy in the article is a college graduate, and I commend him for his accomplishments. However, many of our own college grads are unable to find employment due to our current economy. Why should we allow him to remain to compete for our scarce jobs? How is that fair?

His parents came to this country -- a country they did not know. And, they managed to remain here for years. So, why should it be impossible for him to return home? Don't people routinely relocate to foreign countries? He has a U.S. education, including a U.S. college degree. He'll do fine.


Quote:
Originally Posted by chickenfriedbananas View Post
I think anyone who would seriously advocate this 'law is the law is the law' approach in any and all circumstances -- to the point of arguing against any sort of meaningful immigration reform -- isn't really just anti-illegal immigration but anti-immigration and just doesn't have the balls or integrity to admit it.
What is your idea of meaningful immigration reform? Remember, we already have immigration laws that are not being enforced. In fact, the amnesty passed in 1986 was intended to solve our illegal immigration problems. I think we all know what an abysmal failure that has proven to be. In addition, we were promised our laws would be strictly enforced, our borders would be secured, and illegal employers would be punished. Clearly, all of those promises were broken. So, why should we believe if we grant another amnesty the results will differ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by chickenfriedbananas View Post
Yes, our prisons are full of humans guilty of all sorts of 'crimes'. We have the highest incarceration rate and largest prison population on earth. Not exactly the hallmark of a civilized, enlightened, Utopian society.
But, we are not living in a Utopian society. Otherwise, we would have no need for prisons, because all would be law-abiding. That's merely a pipe dream. Are you suggesting we should not punish those who violate our laws? If so, which laws should we ignore?
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