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Old 02-01-2012, 10:37 AM
 
4,749 posts, read 3,483,439 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eleanora1 View Post
More than half of all illegals, including many DREAMies are from Mexico. Mexico is the world's 12th largest economy. They have a 5% unemployment rate, the world's richest man and national health insurance. By world standards they are not starving. Why is it so wrong to ask Mexican nationals to go live in Mexico? Mexico is not Nazi Germany. Young Mexicans do not have an inherent right to break our immigration laws and then demand the right to a free college degree and American citizenship.

I'm sorry that you seem to think that Mexico is some sort of crazy jungle and that Mexican illegals are tamed zoo animals. That's a completely nutty analogy.
You're missing the point entirely. He could be from a more developed country or a less developed one. The point is, why would it be in our best interests to take someone who has lived here and automatically deport them when it is clear that they were not even old enough to choose to break the law, and possibly not even old enough to understand the concept of immigration law? I am not saying that I would necessarily keep any and everyone who fell into this category, either. All I'm saying is that they probably have earned the right to a petition to stay. And in my eyes, if they can provide some evidence that they've lived their life the right way, then I would be inclined to keep them here. If they have an arrest record or if they seem to be aimlessly drifting, then maybe these aren't the types we would want to keep.

My ultimate point here is, I think some people who rant and rail against immigration aren't always thinking about this topic rationally. They defend it by claiming high ground and pointing out that they're for obeying the laws, but laws schmaws. There are tons of laws on the books. One town in Alabama prohibits you from flicking boogers into the wind. The point is, what about the laws of common sense? I understand the fears that people have of having to deal with a society that appears to be changing in front of them; of having to adapt to their increasing presence. And for what it's worth, I agree with many of our basic immigration control laws. But not every immigration case has to come down to some bureaucrat depending on a piece of text to make decisions that affect people's lives. Yes, we accept a million or so immigrants every year on the whole, but we're still dealing with individuals, who deserve individual respect and treatment. We can make exceptions, and I'm open to making them while maintaining the integrity of the main body of law that exists.
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Old 02-01-2012, 10:51 AM
 
4,749 posts, read 3,483,439 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
Yes, many were brought here as children, some even infants. But, that should not entitle them to legalization, in-state tuition, and a path to citizenship. While they certainly were not responsible for being brought here by their parents, the fact remains, the DREAM Act will reward them for their parents' decision to violate our laws. That is not a solution. Rewarding illegal aliens only serves as an incentive for even more illegal immigration. It certainly is not a deterrent. Then what? Do we simply continue to legalize anyone who entered this country as a child?
But they weren't even old enough to see their moving here as a 'reward' in the first place. It's easy for you and all of us to say that they're being rewarded illegally, but that's the political side of this discussion. We're talking about lives here. Their parents made the decision to come; their families decided to come. In the case we're talking about here, the children did not. What were they to decide?

And I think you're wrong. Punishing the children of illegal immigrants isn't going to deter people from coming across the border. The only thing that will punish them will be erasing the idea that they can come over here and get easy employment, and fortunately (or unfortunately, depending on perspective) that is increasingly harder to do. I think what will solve the problem is an electronic verification system. Sure there will be fraud, but fraud can be traced and eventually prosecuted, and it should be. You have to take the money out of illegal immigration. In the 1980s and 1990s, there was a lot of money out there for illegals, and there were few ways to stop them, primarily because businesses wouldn't get into too much trouble for employing them. ICE could only round up so many, and companies smugly knew that there was a supply and limited consequences for them. The way you end illegal immigration is to make those who finance illegal immigration's economy feel so much pain that they don't dare do business with them.

But sending someone back to Mexico at the age of 27 when they've lived here most of their lives just doesn't seem like something that should be done without careful consideration. If they're a member of a street gang? Sure, no problem. Deport them and harass anyone who gives them harbor and fine the living hell out of anyone who gives them employment of any kind. But someone like the kid in the article who's just trying to get by? Well, I'd still fine heavily anyone who's employing him but I'd also give him a chance to convert his status to a semi-permanent resident with the possibility of becoming a long-term resident and eventually a citizen, provided he's clean. I'm advocating a chance to be heard and judged fairly, not an automatic handout.
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Old 02-01-2012, 10:56 AM
 
Location: Maryland
15,179 posts, read 15,861,656 times
Reputation: 3028
Quote:
Originally Posted by chickenfriedbananas View Post
You're missing the point entirely. He could be from a more developed country or a less developed one. The point is, why would it be in our best interests to take someone who has lived here and automatically deport them when it is clear that they were not even old enough to choose to break the law, and possibly not even old enough to understand the concept of immigration law? I am not saying that I would necessarily keep any and everyone who fell into this category, either. All I'm saying is that they probably have earned the right to a petition to stay. And in my eyes, if they can provide some evidence that they've lived their life the right way, then I would be inclined to keep them here. If they have an arrest record or if they seem to be aimlessly drifting, then maybe these aren't the types we would want to keep.

My ultimate point here is, I think some people who rant and rail against immigration aren't always thinking about this topic rationally. They defend it by claiming high ground and pointing out that they're for obeying the laws, but laws schmaws. There are tons of laws on the books. One town in Alabama prohibits you from flicking boogers into the wind. The point is, what about the laws of common sense? I understand the fears that people have of having to deal with a society that appears to be changing in front of them; of having to adapt to their increasing presence. And for what it's worth, I agree with many of our basic immigration control laws. But not every immigration case has to come down to some bureaucrat depending on a piece of text to make decisions that affect people's lives. Yes, we accept a million or so immigrants every year on the whole, but we're still dealing with individuals, who deserve individual respect and treatment. We can make exceptions, and I'm open to making them while maintaining the integrity of the main body of law that exists.
Please explain your "ideal" plan to solve our illegal immigration problem. Also, how will it be implemented and enforced? And, who will be responsible for footing the bill? Let's not forget, without a secure border, immigration "reform" is futile.

Gotta run.
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Old 02-01-2012, 11:01 AM
 
Location: Maryland
15,179 posts, read 15,861,656 times
Reputation: 3028
Quote:
Originally Posted by chickenfriedbananas View Post
But they weren't even old enough to see their moving here as a 'reward' in the first place. It's easy for you and all of us to say that they're being rewarded illegally, but that's the political side of this discussion. We're talking about lives here. Their parents made the decision to come; their families decided to come. In the case we're talking about here, the children did not. What were they to decide?

And I think you're wrong. Punishing the children of illegal immigrants isn't going to deter people from coming across the border. The only thing that will punish them will be erasing the idea that they can come over here and get easy employment, and fortunately (or unfortunately, depending on perspective) that is increasingly harder to do. I think what will solve the problem is an electronic verification system. Sure there will be fraud, but fraud can be traced and eventually prosecuted, and it should be. You have to take the money out of illegal immigration. In the 1980s and 1990s, there was a lot of money out there for illegals, and there were few ways to stop them, primarily because businesses wouldn't get into too much trouble for employing them. ICE could only round up so many, and companies smugly knew that there was a supply and limited consequences for them. The way you end illegal immigration is to make those who finance illegal immigration's economy feel so much pain that they don't dare do business with them.

But sending someone back to Mexico at the age of 27 when they've lived here most of their lives just doesn't seem like something that should be done without careful consideration. If they're a member of a street gang? Sure, no problem. Deport them and harass anyone who gives them harbor and fine the living hell out of anyone who gives them employment of any kind. But someone like the kid in the article who's just trying to get by? Well, I'd still fine heavily anyone who's employing him but I'd also give him a chance to convert his status to a semi-permanent resident with the possibility of becoming a long-term resident and eventually a citizen, provided he's clean. I'm advocating a chance to be heard and judged fairly, not an automatic handout.
I have to leave, so I will respond to this later. But, exactly how are they being punished? Again, their parents had no problem relocating to this country. Likewise, they should have no problem returning home. After all, we aren't sending them to Siberia. They should blame their parents for their dilemma, not U.S. citizens.
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Old 02-01-2012, 11:15 AM
 
3,493 posts, read 2,397,671 times
Reputation: 2345
Quote:
Originally Posted by chickenfriedbananas View Post
You're missing the point entirely. He could be from a more developed country or a less developed one. The point is, why would it be in our best interests to take someone who has lived here and automatically deport them when it is clear that they were not even old enough to choose to break the law, and possibly not even old enough to understand the concept of immigration law? I am not saying that I would necessarily keep any and everyone who fell into this category, either. All I'm saying is that they probably have earned the right to a petition to stay. And in my eyes, if they can provide some evidence that they've lived their life the right way, then I would be inclined to keep them here. If they have an arrest record or if they seem to be aimlessly drifting, then maybe these aren't the types we would want to keep.
It is not in our best interests to tell the world that if you sneak in here young enough you can stay. No one who breaks our immigration laws even as a child has earned anything from us especially in the middle of a recession.

His problems with citizenship are not MY problems. His desire to have another citizenship is not my concern. I'm sorry you and he seem to think otherwise.

You're also ignoring the fact that if we let him stay we also let his parents stay. Why should we grant mass amnesty to people who've broken our immigration laws just because they've managed to get away with it for years?



Quote:
My ultimate point here is, I think some people who rant and rail against immigration aren't always thinking about this topic rationally. They defend it by claiming high ground and pointing out that they're for obeying the laws, but laws schmaws. There are tons of laws on the books. One town in Alabama prohibits you from flicking boogers into the wind. The point is, what about the laws of common sense? I understand the fears that people have of having to deal with a society that appears to be changing in front of them; of having to adapt to their increasing presence. And for what it's worth, I agree with many of our basic immigration control laws. But not every immigration case has to come down to some bureaucrat depending on a piece of text to make decisions that affect people's lives. Yes, we accept a million or so immigrants every year on the whole, but we're still dealing with individuals, who deserve individual respect and treatment. We can make exceptions, and I'm open to making them while maintaining the integrity of the main body of law that exists.
What common sense says that if you brazenly ignore our immigration laws for decades we'll let you stay? Yes, individuals deserve respect. That includes the respect of treating them like adults who understand that there are consequences for breaking our laws.

I don't think you're thinking about this topic rationally at all. If we follow your ideas we'll just get more illegals. You may want that. Most Americans don't.
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Old 02-01-2012, 11:23 AM
 
3,493 posts, read 2,397,671 times
Reputation: 2345
Quote:
Originally Posted by chickenfriedbananas View Post
But they weren't even old enough to see their moving here as a 'reward' in the first place. It's easy for you and all of us to say that they're being rewarded illegally, but that's the political side of this discussion. We're talking about lives here. Their parents made the decision to come; their families decided to come. In the case we're talking about here, the children did not. What were they to decide?
Once they are adults they can decide to go home. Their parents left for another country. Why can't they do the same?

You want to talk about lives. What about the lives of many of our poorest citizens who face schools that are overcrowded as district offials try to cope with the needs of young illegals? How is fair to punish them to help foreign nationals?

Quote:
And I think you're wrong. Punishing the children of illegal immigrants isn't going to deter people from coming across the border. The only thing that will punish them will be erasing the idea that they can come over here and get easy employment, and fortunately (or unfortunately, depending on perspective) that is increasingly harder to do. I think what will solve the problem is an electronic verification system. Sure there will be fraud, but fraud can be traced and eventually prosecuted, and it should be. You have to take the money out of illegal immigration. In the 1980s and 1990s, there was a lot of money out there for illegals, and there were few ways to stop them, primarily because businesses wouldn't get into too much trouble for employing them. ICE could only round up so many, and companies smugly knew that there was a supply and limited consequences for them. The way you end illegal immigration is to make those who finance illegal immigration's economy feel so much pain that they don't dare do business with them.
We can do both you know. We can certainly start by making it clear to everyone who wants to violate our immigration laws that neither they nor their children will be rewarded for having done so. You might as well tell us not to enforce ANY laws at all because some people will break them.

Quote:
But sending someone back to Mexico at the age of 27 when they've lived here most of their lives just doesn't seem like something that should be done without careful consideration. If they're a member of a street gang? Sure, no problem. Deport them and harass anyone who gives them harbor and fine the living hell out of anyone who gives them employment of any kind. But someone like the kid in the article who's just trying to get by? Well, I'd still fine heavily anyone who's employing him but I'd also give him a chance to convert his status to a semi-permanent resident with the possibility of becoming a long-term resident and eventually a citizen, provided he's clean. I'm advocating a chance to be heard and judged fairly, not an automatic handout.
That 27 year old Mexican national is a resident of Mexico. He's a mature adult, not a kid. If he wants to apply to live here then let him go back to Mexico and do so. He has no automatic right to violate our immigration laws. If he wants to be heard and judged fairly let him start by obeying our laws and going home. Telling us he's here, he's not leaving and there's nothing we can do about it is hardly the way to get most Americans on his side.
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Old 02-01-2012, 11:51 AM
 
Location: California
884 posts, read 588,598 times
Reputation: 293
Quote:
Originally Posted by chickenfriedbananas View Post
Calm down, mate. You're likely to have an aneurysm before we even get to the 4th page on this thread.

Re: your snarling rant above, I don't think it's really necessary for me to take care of anyone. They seem quite willing to take care of themselves. All I'm saying is that it might not be a bad thing for us to allow someone who came here - albeit illegally - at the age of 10 or 11 and otherwise grown up here as a Latino-American to continue becoming more and more American. I think there's a difference between a child who comes here not entirely by their own choice and a 19-year-adult who does the same on his own volition.



Blood, or compassion? You just seem angry. I'm sorry for that, whatever its source may be.
I do agree with you about the little ones and it isn't their fault really. I do have compassion believe me. I am a Trauma Flight RN and I do it for more than the nice pay. Anyway, when I was younger the illegals here in California worked their butts off in the fields. Most didn't expect a free ride and took care of themselves best they could. They really did. Mid 90's or so, the borders seemed to open wide and the infulx has been atrocious ever since. Chicken you seem like a nice young man, and being in Texas, you must see the changes. Here in California the financial toll has reached a boiling point. I want to extend a warm apology to you for ranting, but then smack you upside the head! HA HA J/k. I wont even get into the money the taxpayer doles out for people who are here illegally, I am working on my Masters in Healthcare Administration and YES we tax payers are footing the bill. Your logic is from the heart and that is not a bad thing but it also isn't reality. Take care yourself!
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Old 02-01-2012, 01:15 PM
 
4,749 posts, read 3,483,439 times
Reputation: 3223
Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
Please explain your "ideal" plan to solve our illegal immigration problem. Also, how will it be implemented and enforced? And, who will be responsible for footing the bill? Let's not forget, without a secure border, immigration "reform" is futile.

Gotta run.
I don't have an ideal plan; it's too comprehensive an issue to encapsulate in one post or even one thread. I, like a lot of people, have a lot of specific opinions about a lot of specific issues related to the larger umbrella issue of illegal immigration and immigration as a whole. My views run the gamut. I probably lean to the left of everyone here on this section of the board, but that doesn't mean I necessarily dismiss everyone's opinions outright. I do favor immigration controls and I expect there to be enforcement of the law and consequences for disobeying the law. But we can do so in a way that's balanced.

One of those examples I feel where we need to be more 'balanced' is in the type of scenario that was initially mentioned in the OP's article. If he came over at the age of 18 or 19 and was old enough to be responsible for himself and to know what he's doing, then I suppose that's one thing. I wouldn't advocate keeping him here, even in spite of the fact that he's probably in some way made meaningful contributions. As others have said, he chose to break a law, and there are generally consequences for that. However, if we're talking about some guy who moved over here at the age of 4, I don't see how we can say that we send him back at the age of 21 if it's clear that he's building a productive life. That just doesn't make sense to me. We have the option of sending him back if he's a bad apple, but we also have the option of keeping him here and allowing him to become as American as apple pie.

I think the ideal solution is to take the money out of illegal immigration. The immigrants who come here illegally do so because they think that they can come over with all their family members, pool financial resources together, and share living facilities and make a decent living as long as they're not disturbing anyone. And employers from large processing plants to homeowners hiring handymen hire them knowing that it's no big deal if they get caught. Change that. Make it a big deal. Make it a problem for the plant manager. Make a headache for the homeowner hiring handymen. Force everyone - every single solitary person - to verify immigration status. Make them pay heavy, heavy fines for failure to use a required worker eligibility verification system. Do that, and I guarantee the problems will go away. There's fairly substantial evidence that this is already occurring in Arizona, which mandated e-verify a year or two ago, I believe. Without the expectation of pay, they will move elsewhere to another state. Do this in all 50 states, and there will be nowhere else to go. It will take time but it will happen.
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Old 02-01-2012, 01:30 PM
 
4,749 posts, read 3,483,439 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eleanora1 View Post
Once they are adults they can decide to go home. Their parents left for another country. Why can't they do the same?
Because their parents were motivated to come to this country. There is not necessarily any motivation -- other than running from law enforcement or creditors -- for someone living here to leave the country.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eleanora1 View Post
You want to talk about lives. What about the lives of many of our poorest citizens who face schools that are overcrowded as district offials try to cope with the needs of young illegals? How is fair to punish them to help foreign nationals?
Repatriating someone in the example we're discussing doesn't really address the situation you're talking about. I understand and agree that we need to curb illegal immigration in general. I'm talking about unique cases where it might be in our interest, and in the interests of what's fair and just, to keep someone here, rather than just mindlessly following some legal principle.

Quote:
We can do both you know. We can certainly start by making it clear to everyone who wants to violate our immigration laws that neither they nor their children will be rewarded for having done so. You might as well tell us not to enforce ANY laws at all because some people will break them.
That's an extreme position, and I don't think it's necessary. I don't believe that giving an inch always means giving a mile. I think the problem for years has been, we have been giving miles, not inches. And by giving miles, I mean giving employers essentially an unlimited supply of illegal labor while giving them limited consequences for their actions. If we make them feel the consequences, then one will naturally take care of the other over time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eleanora1 View Post
That 27 year old Mexican national is a resident of Mexico. He's a mature adult, not a kid. If he wants to apply to live here then let him go back to Mexico and do so. He has no automatic right to violate our immigration laws. If he wants to be heard and judged fairly let him start by obeying our laws and going home. Telling us he's here, he's not leaving and there's nothing we can do about it is hardly the way to get most Americans on his side.
Actually, he's not a resident of Mexico; he could be a citizen of Mexico, but he's quite obviously not a resident, unless he's misrepresenting himself in the story, which he doesn't appear to be. He's a resident of the United States, just not one in the eyes of the law.

I do agree with you that he is not wise to go out in front of the press and start thrusting himself in the middle of a political controversy. On that we can agree. But I also suspect it's just voicing his personal frustration over being trapped between two nations, and two cultures; living in a place that he has come to see as his home, with presumably all of his friends and close social connections, but to be reminded on a daily basis that he doesn't even legally exist as a resident in this country. I could understand that frustration, even if I think he's not wise to voice it publicly.
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Old 02-01-2012, 03:00 PM
 
4,749 posts, read 3,483,439 times
Reputation: 3223
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iluvmycountry View Post
I do agree with you about the little ones and it isn't their fault really. I do have compassion believe me. I am a Trauma Flight RN and I do it for more than the nice pay. Anyway, when I was younger the illegals here in California worked their butts off in the fields. Most didn't expect a free ride and took care of themselves best they could. They really did. Mid 90's or so, the borders seemed to open wide and the infulx has been atrocious ever since. Chicken you seem like a nice young man, and being in Texas, you must see the changes. Here in California the financial toll has reached a boiling point. I want to extend a warm apology to you for ranting, but then smack you upside the head! HA HA J/k. I wont even get into the money the taxpayer doles out for people who are here illegally, I am working on my Masters in Healthcare Administration and YES we tax payers are footing the bill. Your logic is from the heart and that is not a bad thing but it also isn't reality. Take care yourself!
We're cool, dude. No worries. I get hyper on these sorts of threads, too.
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