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Old 02-02-2012, 10:18 AM
 
Location: southern california
55,237 posts, read 72,427,088 times
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az should be praised for its willingness to enforce the law.
the trauma of separation of family started when they left their families, in mexico.
the federal government has refused to enforce or obey its own laws. that is what caused the last civil war.
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Old 02-02-2012, 10:21 AM
 
4,749 posts, read 3,466,405 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
We have been told there are approximately 12 million illegal aliens in this country for the past decade. The fact remains, no one, including the government, has a clue as to the actual number. I certainly don't see evidence of a decline in the DC area. If anything, they seem to be drastically increasing. But, given our lax enforcement and the coddling they receive, why would they leave?
Okay, but let me ask, how would you know that the people you see in front of you are 'illegal'. I'm sorry, but they don't wear signs that give it away. Not every Spanish speaker is an illegal. There are about 600,000 or so Hispanic immigrants who come here legally every year.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
Outsourcing to China and India is indeed a problem. If companies aren't sending jobs overseas for cheap labor, they're hiring cheap (illegal) labor here. This is precisely why our middle class is on life support. If the status quo continues, it will ultimately pull the plug.
Right on, and who are you going to blame for that one? There's a common denominator here. You can point the finger at the illegal who crosses the border, but as companies have shown, no problem, they'll just move their operations overseas -- where paying peanuts is completely legal.

That's why I question this obsession over illegal immigration. Pols like Mitt Romney and others on the right play the right notes and play to the fears of people who post ad nauseam on this thread, but that's just because they're telling you what you want to hear. What they don't tell you is they wholeheartedly support the companies that keep hiring labor on the cheap. At first that meant tacitly endorsing a 'blind eye' approach to illegals, but then that became unpopular so they changed their tune and got tough on illegals. Now they just solve the problem by promoting companies who send labor overseas. Problem solved. American worker screwed. Build the fence however high you like. You're still out of a job, mate.
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Old 02-02-2012, 10:34 AM
 
Location: Maryland
15,179 posts, read 15,816,809 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chickenfriedbananas View Post
Sure, if they meet those criteria and have led a clean life, and if it's clear that they didn't intend to come here as free-willed adults but came here as children just tagging along with their families, then yes. I think you want to draw a line because you don't see illegal aliens as humans, you see them as statistics..
But, the DREAM Act as written would also include all illegal alien children enrolled in K-12. Again, how do we allow minors to stay, while deporting their parents? You have yet to respond to this question.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chickenfriedbananas View Post
That's a bogus argument. People who are obsessing over illegal immigration don't care about the poor in this country; they fear that this country is losing its identity. I can understand that fear on some level, and I'd probably understand it even better if I lived 50 miles from the border. But I'm just saying, it's not about the poor in this country. That's b.s. and you know it. There's nothing that supports the idea that illegals are taking jobs away from the working poor in this country.
I oppose illegal immigration for many reasons -- including the unnecessary fiscal burden, the displacement of workers, the depression of wages, and their brazen disregard for our sovereignty. I couldn't possibly care less about the race or ethnicity of the residents of this country, as long as they are here legally.

Last edited by Benicar; 02-02-2012 at 11:00 AM..
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Old 02-02-2012, 10:54 AM
 
Location: Maryland
15,179 posts, read 15,816,809 times
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Originally Posted by chickenfriedbananas View Post
Okay, but let me ask, how would you know that the people you see in front of you are 'illegal'. I'm sorry, but they don't wear signs that give it away. Not every Spanish speaker is an illegal. There are about 600,000 or so Hispanic immigrants who come here legally every year.
Of course you can't simply look at a person and determine their immigration status. However, you can look at drastic overnight demographic changes, particularly, if that demographic is comprised primarily of non-English-speaking, Spanish-speaking "immigrants." No area experiences that level of sudden "immigration" through legal channels. In fact, it was quite noticeable after Prince William County passed strict anti-illegal laws. Overnight MD was bombarded by new "immigrants" with VA tags. It's not exactly rocket science.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chickenfriedbananas View Post
Right on, and who are you going to blame for that one? There's a common denominator here. You can point the finger at the illegal who crosses the border, but as companies have shown, no problem, they'll just move their operations overseas -- where paying peanuts is completely legal.
The companies should be the first target. But again, they own our government and politicians.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chickenfriedbananas View Post
That's why I question this obsession over illegal immigration. Pols like Mitt Romney and others on the right play the right notes and play to the fears of people who post ad nauseam on this thread, but that's just because they're telling you what you want to hear. What they don't tell you is they wholeheartedly support the companies that keep hiring labor on the cheap. At first that meant tacitly endorsing a 'blind eye' approach to illegals, but then that became unpopular so they changed their tune and got tough on illegals. Now they just solve the problem by promoting companies who send labor overseas. Problem solved. American worker screwed. Build the fence however high you like. You're still out of a job, mate.
You may consider it "obsession." But, I consider myself a concerned taxpaying citizen, who is sick and tired of my hard-earned tax dollars being fleeced by illegal foreigners. No one has the right to live in a country illegally, period.

I am not a party loyalist. In fact, I am sickened by all politicians. So, whatever they say goes in one ear and out the other. They have absolutely no bearing on my opinion on illegal immigration. I have a mind.

Mate? Are you a U.S. citizen?
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Old 02-02-2012, 11:06 AM
 
3,493 posts, read 2,386,453 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chickenfriedbananas View Post
Sure, if they meet those criteria and have led a clean life, and if it's clear that they didn't intend to come here as free-willed adults but came here as children just tagging along with their families, then yes. I think you want to draw a line because you don't see illegal aliens as humans, you see them as statistics.
No one should be allowed to bring there children here without our permission and have them declared American citizens. As it is that punishes our own poor people by overcrowding their schools. Why don't you care about them? Why should a poor American child suffer through overcrowded schools and decreased resouces to meet the needs of Mexican children? How is that fair?

And yes of course I see illegals as humans. I see them as humans who should be held responsible for their actions.

Why don't you?


Quote:
LOL. Dude, just getting rid of Mexicans isn't going to necessarily bring Americans more jobs. There could be many reasons why Americans don't have jobs. But to put it into perspective, your day laborer Mexican isn't going to replace some IT guy or some plant manager who lost his job. Similarly, those who lost their jobs aren't going to be automatically qualified to replace the deported handyman sent home to Mexico. Nor would they be qualified to work as a cook in a Mexican restaurant or carniceria. Mexicans have been coming over in fewer and fewer numbers since 2006, and with the exception of a spike in 2004-2006, they've actually been coming over in fewer numbers since about 1999. There's been a decline in the number of illegal immigrants since about 2007 or 2008. It doesn't seem to have helped the average American get his job back, has it?
You really need to educate yourself on this subject before commenting on in further. Americans have lost jobs because they've been displaced by illegals from Mexico. Go look up what happened to janitors in Los Angeles or construction workers all over America. We've deported Mexicans in the past and that has helped increase worker's wages. We need to do so again. We owe our own workers. We don't owe Mexicans who break our immigration and employment laws anything.

I'm sorry you feel otherwise.


Quote:
That's a bogus argument. People who are obsessing over illegal immigration don't care about the poor in this country; they fear that this country is losing its identity. I can understand that fear on some level, and I'd probably understand it even better if I lived 50 miles from the border. But I'm just saying, it's not about the poor in this country. That's b.s. and you know it. There's nothing that supports the idea that illegals are taking jobs away from the working poor in this country.
The only thing b.s. is this paragraph. You just proved that it is often impossible to have a rational discussion of this issue with illegal supporters. Everything to them boils down to: you just hate the ethnicity of the illegals and you're a lousy racist. Illegal defenders have to resort to this argument because they have no other.

Let's review the facts about illegals here. Most illegals are either Mexican or Guatemalan. Few speak English. Less than half have a high school diploma. Who do you think they are competing against for jobs? And who do you think is paying for the education of their children in Spanish or their emergency medical bills or the car accidents they cause when they drive without insurance or licensure?

I'll give you a hint: it isn't the employer. Illegals lower wages on the poor. They are a fiscal burden on the middle class. They benefit two groups and two groups only: cheap employers who prefer docile labor and Mexican officials who like to retain their oligarchy. It's shameful that you're siding with both of those deeply selfish groups.
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Old 02-02-2012, 11:16 AM
 
14,307 posts, read 11,152,437 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
Of course you can't simply look at a person and determine their immigration status. However, you can look at drastic overnight demographic changes, particularly, if that demographic is comprised primarily of non-English-speaking, Spanish-speaking "immigrants." No area experiences that level of sudden "immigration" through legal channels. In fact, it was quite noticeable after Prince William County passed strict anti-illegal laws. Overnight MD was bombarded by new "immigrants" with VA tags. It's not exactly rocket science.



The companies should be the first target. But again, they own our government and politicians.



You may consider it "obsession." But, I consider myself a concerned taxpaying citizen, who is sick and tired of my hard-earned tax dollars being fleeced by illegal foreigners. No one has the right to live in a country illegally, period.

I am not a party loyalist. In fact, I am sickened by all politicians. So, whatever they say goes in one ear and out the other. They have absolutely no bearing on my opinion on illegal immigration. I have a mind.

Mate? Are you a U.S. citizen?
Agreed on all points. I would just add that if we Americans are going to be denied jobs in our own country I would rather have them outsourced than to have illegal aliens imported to take them. The reason being is that with millions of illegals in this country they are also increasing our taxes for their social costs, adding uncontrolled population growth to our country, depleting our natural resources, overcrowding our schools, hospitals, adding to our crime stats and diluting our culture and language. Not so with outsourcing.
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Old 02-02-2012, 11:41 AM
 
Location: Maryland
15,179 posts, read 15,816,809 times
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Originally Posted by chicagonut View Post
Agreed on all points. I would just add that if we Americans are going to be denied jobs in our own country I would rather have them outsourced than to have illegal aliens imported to take them. The reason being is that with millions of illegals in this country they are also increasing our taxes for their social costs, adding uncontrolled population growth to our country, depleting our natural resources, overcrowding our schools, hospitals, adding to our crime stats and diluting our culture and language. Not so with outsourcing.
True. At least we don't have the burden of providing tax-funded benefits to those workers. Nor are their children overcrowding our schools and creating huge budget deficits. Their workers are also not closing our hospitals, receiving organ transplants and kidney dialysis, or the myriad other burdens we are forced to bear due to illegal immigration.
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Old 02-02-2012, 11:58 AM
 
4,749 posts, read 3,466,405 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
The companies should be the first target. But again, they own our government and politicians.
They own us because we let them. They're convincing people like you that you would be more employable or you'd otherwise have more money in your pocket if they weren't here to take it from you, deflecting you away from the truth, which is that *they* are the ones who are robbing you blind - not illegals. Their 'gift' to you in return is to go after this bogeyman in the closet that you're so scared of. It's not going to do you any good. It hasn't done you any good for the past 10 years -- in fact, the rich barony in this society are ripping you off now more than they ever have in history, and you're standing there pointing the finger at people with barely a few pesos in their pocket as they enter the country. So they'll keep ripping you off until you finally figure it out -- which may be right around never.

You don't even see what's happening here, do you? It's classic divide and conquer used by the elite in this country. It's just like when they used racist ideology to goad sharecroppers into racist conflict with poor blacks during the Jim Crow era. "Hey now, son, I say, nah, I say, don't you go blamin' us rich folk fer ya woes, it's them nigros you need to go aftuh'. Believe us, we'd love nothin' more than to keep you folks rich, but we just cain't.' The white elite blamed the blacks for their elitist policies and, as a gift, gave poor whites Jim Crow laws to keep blacks one rung below them on the socioeconomic ladder. That's what's happening here. The corporate elite are using this as a wedge issue, and you're buying it. Congrats.

Quote:
You may consider it "obsession." But, I consider myself a concerned taxpaying citizen, who is sick and tired of my hard-earned tax dollars being fleeced by illegal foreigners. No one has the right to live in a country illegally, period.
Read the above.

Quote:
I am not a party loyalist. In fact, I am sickened by all politicians. So, whatever they say goes in one ear and out the other. They have absolutely no bearing on my opinion on illegal immigration. I have a mind.
Exactly. You're jaded. Which is exactly what they want you to be. As far as they're concerned, this is great news. Maybe you won't even vote in the next electioon -- which would be great news as far as they're concerned. Just as long as you're jaded and continue accepting their power as inevitable. They want you to believe that there is nothing you can to do touch them and that the best you can hope for is to take out your frustrations on the political punching bags they've given to you. And you're playing right into their hands.
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Old 02-02-2012, 12:07 PM
 
4,749 posts, read 3,466,405 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eleanora1 View Post
No one should be allowed to bring there children here without our permission and have them declared American citizens. As it is that punishes our own poor people by overcrowding their schools. Why don't you care about them? Why should a poor American child suffer through overcrowded schools and decreased resouces to meet the needs of Mexican children? How is that fair?
It's not fair, and I completely agree with you that something has to be done to address that. I'm not saying illegal immigration has no consequences. The funny thing is, I opened this thread by saying I agree with most of the posters on this forum on the general notion that illegal immigration should be enforced. But this thread has also shown why I've also had issues with those who, as I put it, 'obsess' over this issue. Only on a thread like this can nuanced agreement turn into 'support for illegal aliens' - and even speculation that I might not be a citizen of the U.S. at all (lol). It's pure tunnel-vision and frankly blind prejudice that is driving some of this discussion. There is no other explanation for it.

Quote:
You really need to educate yourself on this subject before commenting on in further. Americans have lost jobs because they've been displaced by illegals from Mexico. Go look up what happened to janitors in Los Angeles or construction workers all over America. We've deported Mexicans in the past and that has helped increase worker's wages. We need to do so again. We owe our own workers. We don't owe Mexicans who break our immigration and employment laws anything.
Do you have evidence for this above? Evidence that proves or at least strongly associates deportations with wage increases as a direct result? I won't say it never occurs -- I'm sure it has somewhere, but I am skeptical that it occurs on a wide scale. Illegals have left this country mainly because they are feeling less welcome here but also because of fewer economic opportunities in this economy as a whole.

Quote:
The only thing b.s. is this paragraph. You just proved that it is often impossible to have a rational discussion of this issue with illegal supporters. Everything to them boils down to: you just hate the ethnicity of the illegals and you're a lousy racist. Illegal defenders have to resort to this argument because they have no other.
If anything, I think the same could be said of anti-illegals. And I consider myself someone who is anti-illegal immigration, but I'm not obsessed with this issue the way others apparently are.
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Old 02-02-2012, 12:09 PM
 
4,749 posts, read 3,466,405 times
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Originally Posted by Eleanora1 View Post
I'll give you a hint: it isn't the employer. Illegals lower wages on the poor. They are a fiscal burden on the middle class. They benefit two groups and two groups only: cheap employers who prefer docile labor and Mexican officials who like to retain their oligarchy. It's shameful that you're siding with both of those deeply selfish groups.
If you spent as much time going after these employers, you wouldn't have an illegal immigration problem. There would be no money in illegal immigration to begin with. I'm sorry you don't seem to understand that.
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