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Old 02-19-2012, 02:09 PM
 
44 posts, read 35,221 times
Reputation: 23

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
He wasn't referring to slavery, and I think you know that. He was referring to black citizens fighting and dying for rights during the Civil Rights Movement. He was referring to black citizens refusing to be treated like second-class citizens, and being denied basic human dignity. They fought. They didn't run like cowards and enter another country illegally, and expect its citizens to embrace them and support their families. And, they endured far worse treatment in this country than illegal aliens in theirs.

The citizens of this country are entitled to oppose unjust laws and fight to have them changed. Conversely, non-citizens, especially illegal non-citizens, have no such right.



Yes, as others have stated, they broke the laws in THEIR country, and fought for rights in THEIR country. Did Rosa Parks go to another country and refuse to give up her seat?

Stop deliberately conflating slavery and the Underground Railroad with the Civil Rights Movement. Who wouldn't flee from the atrocities of slavery? But, are Mexicans and other illegals fleeing slavery?
You don't appear to understand the Dred Scott decision. Not only were Blacks, whether slave or free, not citizens but they could never be. That makes them aliens and aliens unable to become citizens. They were in fact legally in a far worse situation than current illegal aliens. And they did not rescue themselves from this fate...but were rescued by the 14th amendment which was the product of the northern victors in the civil war.

One can argue that the Mexicans are in fact fleeing a societal driven slavery. There are ways out but it is probably more difficult to execute than fleeing to the US.

Quote:
Tell me, how many Mexicans are being lynched in Mexico for being brown? How many Mexicans are forced to drink from brown water fountains, or use brown restrooms? How many Mexicans are being hosed by police, or attacked by their dogs for daring to oppose Mexico's racist laws? How many Mexicans are having their churches bombed and their children murdered for no other reason than their brown skin? The list goes on, but I think you catch my drift.
The fate of an uppity peasant can easily end up in death. Happens quite often in the more rural areas. And looking at the wrong women can get you beaten to a pulp. It is less institutionalized than American slavery or Jim Crow but no less operative.

I would of course agree that the primary motivation of illegals is economic. But there are others. Note that the same thing can be said for Blacks such as the migration to the north after WW II.

Quote:

Yes, the birth rate has lowered in Mexico. However, when their illegal citizens come here, they give birth at extremely high rates. In fact, their births account for the majority of the increase in this country. Funny how WIC, welfare, and myriad other freebies changes their behavior.
They give birth at a rate about a third higher than the equivalent native socio class. Both give birth at a rate higher than the college educated.

That in no way is an extremely high rate.
Quote:

Is that our current law? Of course not! And, you know it. Or, at least you should.

The fact that you used the "N" word indicates more about YOU, than the laws during that era. I know, I know, that's what THEY called black folks.
The point is that it was the law of the land...but it was changed.
Quote:

Most illegal aliens are Mexican, and they are far from destitute. In fact, Mexico has a low unemployment rate, and one of the highest obesity rates in the world. Furthermore, the average illegal from Mexico was employed there, and only came here for a pay increase, and to avail themselves of our tax-funded benefits. If they were truly destitute, they couldn't afford to pay coyotes thousands of dollars, could they?
The real unemployment rate for low socio level Mexicans is very high. Particularly for the young. Often the payment to Coyotes is made with borrowed money or collectively by a family group.

Benefits may in fact incent people to stay but it is very doubtful that they cause the actual decision to go north


Quote:
Again, there is no valid comparison to be made between black citizens opposing bigoted laws and fighting for rights in THEIR country, and hordes of illegals fleeing like cowards for greener pastures in the USA. If they had gumption, like MLK, they wouldn't be here. They would remain home, and fight to make it better, like MLK did in HIS country. Stop making excuses for these cowards, thieves, and parasites.

It takes a lot of damn nerve to even attempt to compare the plight of black citizens to illegal aliens. It only serves as evidence of your extreme desperation and lack of anything even marginally substantive to offer as justification for illegal immigration. Pathetic!
That you can't see the parallel does not make it go away. The actual freeing of the Black man was an act by the citizenry not driven by revolt or demonstration. It was simply the right thing to do. The same thing is likely working here.

 
Old 02-19-2012, 02:14 PM
 
Location: California
2,477 posts, read 1,714,884 times
Reputation: 299
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbcmh81 View Post
It's really not that hard to figure out, through the views given, who has experience related to the topic of discussion. Those who keep insisting that they would never break the law or cross a border in the kind of desperation that they have never experienced are being dishonest. It's easy to promote moral posturing sitting in your home office with a refrigerator full of food.
Again, your claiming that some are being dishonest is contradicted by your very own words: if you have an asset that isn't feeding you, clothing you, or putthing [sic] a roof over your head, it would make perfect sense to sell it in the hopes that the money can lead to an opportunity that would. Correct, accept you insinuate that it would require immigrating to another country due to desperation, when in reality it does not. So, by your own words you contradict your moral posturing.
 
Old 02-19-2012, 02:18 PM
 
3,493 posts, read 2,388,862 times
Reputation: 2345
And that would only matter if the government raised taxes, which is a very unpopular position in Mexico, just like in the US.

It's almost cute that you believe that Mexico could absorb millions of sick Americans and care for them without raising taxes.

This seems to be your answer for everything: Ignore it if it's inconvenient.

And your answer seems to be that Americans should pay for whatever Mexicans demand. What other foreign nationals do you believe should Americans pay for? Or is it only Mexicans?

I'm not pro-illegal. I'm pro-common sense. I'm pro-human. I'm pro-logic. I'm pro-sensible immigration reform. I'm anti-discrimination. I'm anti-racism. Basically, I'm the opposite position from most people here, save the first one.

It is not common sense to tell Mexico's poor that the solution to their poverty is to move to America. It's not fair to let Mexico's oligarchs off the hook for the way they govern their society. It's certainly not fair to demand that America's middle class pay more in taxes to subsidize them. It's disgusting to imply that anyone who disagrees with your idiotic stance and ill thought out self congratulatory posturing is a racist.

You are not pro-human. You do not believe that American humans have the right to govern our society as we see fit without opposition from foreign invaders.
 
Old 02-19-2012, 02:25 PM
 
Location: California
2,477 posts, read 1,714,884 times
Reputation: 299
Quote:
Originally Posted by acetic3 View Post
That you can't see the parallel does not make it go away. The actual freeing of the Black man was an act by the citizenry not driven by revolt or demonstration. It was simply the right thing to do. The same thing is likely working here.
Again, there is no parallel between Blacks and illegal immigrants. Legal immigrants come here on an equal basis, illegal immigrants come here on an unequal basis and demand that they be treated with equality that they are not entitled to. Blacks of the past were forced here by kidnapping and brought here against their will.

There is NO parallel!
 
Old 02-19-2012, 02:27 PM
 
Location: Chicago metro
3,376 posts, read 7,058,402 times
Reputation: 1854
Quote:
Originally Posted by gysmo View Post
what are you talking about blacks weren't even allowed leave their plantations!! if they could take of thier chackels they would have been running to the border! yes black people had it much worse 1000 times! all i have to say if the shoe was on the other foot you yes you would be doing the same thing!!
Some runaway slaves snuck all the way to Canada(Nova Scotia especially), while others or freed men left North America entirely and settled in the African country that is known to be Liberia.
 
Old 02-19-2012, 02:31 PM
 
Location: Indiana
2,047 posts, read 1,302,386 times
Reputation: 395
Quote:
Originally Posted by malamute View Post
I'm talking about the black civil rights movement. Mexicans won't march in their own country, they won't work for reforms, social justice there. They won't do a damned thing for their people in Mexico.

Black Americans had it much much worse than the people of Mexico but they did not run from the USA but stayed and worked for positive change. Completely different from foreigners arriving here en masse demanding everything be handed to them as their reward for breaking the law while they do nothing about justice and social reform for their own country, they do nothing to improve it.

The flood of people over the border isn't going to do anything to prevent the collapse of that country. Instead of leaving en masse, if they would stay and work to better the regions they're fleeing, they could improve their country and culture. All that glitters isn't gold, the massive level of illegal immigration we're seeing has nothing to do with starvation.
I don't blame the people from coming here illegally. I blame the U.S. government for not enforcing the laws on the books for not securing the boarders, for allowing sanctuary cities to not enforce the U.S. laws. it is too easy to come to America the odds are very good and that is what brings people here. enforce the laws and you will see a dramatic decrease of people trying to come here!! the first Americans did the same thing they left their country to come to look for a better place. black people didn't leave the U.S. because they knew that any Mexican would have traded places with them to be here in America!! all i saying don't blame people. turn your anger at the U.S. government for allowing these thing to go on!! vote for people that have the cajones to enforce the laws!! there is the blame!!
 
Old 02-19-2012, 02:42 PM
 
Location: Maryland
15,179 posts, read 15,830,020 times
Reputation: 3028
Quote:
Originally Posted by acetic3 View Post
You don't appear to understand the Dred Scott decision. Not only were Blacks, whether slave or free, not citizens but they could never be. That makes them aliens and aliens unable to become citizens. They were in fact legally in a far worse situation than current illegal aliens. And they did not rescue themselves from this fate...but were rescued by the 14th amendment which was the product of the northern victors in the civil war.
And, you don't seem to understand our current laws. Stop living in the past. Again, we are not discussing slavery, or the amendments to the Constitution pertaining to freed slaves. Try again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by acetic3 View Post
One can argue that the Mexicans are in fact fleeing a societal driven slavery. There are ways out but it is probably more difficult to execute than fleeing to the US.
This is too laughable to even take seriously. Mexicans are NOT escaping slavery by any stretch of the imagination.

Quote:
Originally Posted by acetic3 View Post
The fate of an uppity peasant can easily end up in death. Happens quite often in the more rural areas. And looking at the wrong women can get you beaten to a pulp. It is less institutionalized than American slavery or Jim Crow but no less operative.
You are pathetically grasping at straws. Give it up.

Quote:
Originally Posted by acetic3 View Post
I would of course agree that the primary motivation of illegals is economic. But there are others. Note that the same thing can be said for Blacks such as the migration to the north after WW II.
Are you seriously comparing the migration of black folks after WWII to northern states in THEIR country to Mexicans entering this country illegally? Please.

Quote:
Originally Posted by acetic3 View Post
They give birth at a rate about a third higher than the equivalent native socio class. Both give birth at a rate higher than the college educated.

That in no way is an extremely high rate.
Illegal aliens have no right to even be here. The fact that they are giving birth at a higher rate than citizens, particularly given their incidence of government assistance to support their children, is yet another reason they should leave. They're draining us dry.

Quote:
Originally Posted by acetic3 View Post
The point is that it was the law of the land...but it was changed.
The fact remains, it was the law of THIS land, changed by citizens of THIS country.

Quote:
Originally Posted by acetic3 View Post
The real unemployment rate for low socio level Mexicans is very high. Particularly for the young. Often the payment to Coyotes is made with borrowed money or collectively by a family group.

Benefits may in fact incent people to stay but it is very doubtful that they cause the actual decision to go north
Please share your source.

Quote:
Originally Posted by acetic3 View Post
That you can't see the parallel does not make it go away. The actual freeing of the Black man was an act by the citizenry not driven by revolt or demonstration. It was simply the right thing to do. The same thing is likely working here.
Hogwash! Tell that to the black and white citizens who gave their lives fighting for equality for black citizens. And, if you believe there were no demonstrations, you clearly know nothing about the Civil Rights Movement. Yes, it was the right thing to do for CITIZENS of this country. If illegals want the same, they should return home and fight. We owe them NOTHING.
 
Old 02-19-2012, 03:49 PM
 
47,576 posts, read 58,810,130 times
Reputation: 22171
Quote:
Originally Posted by acetic3 View Post
One can argue that the Mexicans are in fact fleeing a societal driven slavery. There are ways out but it is probably more difficult to execute than fleeing to the US.



The fate of an uppity peasant can easily end up in death. Happens quite often in the more rural areas. And looking at the wrong women can get you beaten to a pulp. It is less institutionalized than American slavery or Jim Crow but no less operative.
You are dead wrong on that. Mexico ended slavery about 50 years before it was ended in the USA. Slavery is NOT legal in Mexico, illegals are not fleeing slavery, they were not slaves in their own country. Slavery is no more legal in Mexico than it is in the USA. You insult a whole country with claiming that.

Is that the new pro-open borders excuse? That the illegals are fleeing slavery? That they are escaping slaves and that's their reason for running from their country?

Of course we all know Mexico is not a country where people are dying of starvation at some higher rate than in the USA. And wages in Mexico are much higher than wages in many countries and Mexico is NOT a very impoverished nation.

And you can be beaten to a pulp in the USA and for the same exact reasons people are beaten to a pulp in other countries, but that would be more a reason to work for justice and social reform, not an excuse to break the laws of the USA.
 
Old 02-19-2012, 03:54 PM
 
47,576 posts, read 58,810,130 times
Reputation: 22171
Before all the rest of the open borders crowd starts jumping on the slavery is the excuse they are fleeing Mexico -- read up on Mexican laws.

Illegals are simply slaves escaping slavery?????? Seriously!! Let's get real.

Mexico Law Labor

There is ample protection provided labor in Mexico. Employers are not permitted to dismiss employees without just cause. If they do so, the employee has a right to file suit for re-instatement or indemnification. The labor courts will presume that the person stating he was your employee is in fact your employee and that you dismissed him without cause. As well the labor courts will require proper representation of the employer (proper power of attorney if an agent represents the employer in labor court) (I have have seen labor suits lost by employers in Mexico due to improper representation).

If resolved in favor of the employee, he has the right to reinstatement plus all back wages that were incurred while the court process was going on. If the employee decides not to seek reinstatement, then he may receive three months salary, all back wages, plus other items that were owed him/her prior to the dismissal (such as unpaid vacations, year end bonuses, profit sharing, seniority pay, maturity leave, and others).

The employer may chose not to reinstate the employee for unjustified dismissal when: a) the employer has been an employee for less than a year, b) the employee and employer are constantly in direct contact and the Board of Conciliation and Arbitration deems that the two can not work together, c) when the employee was an "of confidence" employee (entrusted with confidential administrative or management type activities), when the employee was arrested, d) when the services provided were the rendering of socially oriented public services imposed by law or order issued by authority, or e) the employee was working as an occasional ("eventual" - sporadical or odd jobs) worker.

The labor relationship may terminate by: a) mutual agreement (employer/employee) (employees can not be obligated to work at a specific job for more than one year, however they may continue if they wish), b) by death of the employee, c) by termination (completion) of the job performed or by expiration of the time for which the employee was hired (in order for a job to be of a determined time period, it should not be of a type that is normally considered as ongoing or have some circumstance that makes it so), d) by mental or physical incapacitation of the employee or by resolution of the Conciliation and Arbitration Board.
 
Old 02-19-2012, 04:04 PM
 
44 posts, read 35,221 times
Reputation: 23
Again no one here can read...

"societal driven slavery"

De facto not de jure.
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