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Old 03-02-2012, 11:15 AM
 
3,493 posts, read 2,385,153 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mach50 View Post
No, I am implying as the OP did: anti-illegals are all hypocrites, this very country was derived by illegal occupation but of course by European standards, they were known as "Pioneers".

That's the actual premise of this thread.

OP:
The OP made an ignorant statement and you are agreeing with him.

The country was founded by the founding fathers who rebelled against the Brits and their refusal to grant Americans our independence from foreign powers. Most of them were not immigrants and non of them were illegals. The real irony is that most illegals, unlike most Americans today, are not descended from the colonists or the Spanish conquistadors. A majority of illegals are Mexican and therefore part of an occupying foreign just as arrogant as the Brits.

Illegals have no legal or moral claim on this country. They are nasty invaders who treat local customs and our laws with vast contempt. People like myself who the descendents of legal immigrants have every right to demand they go home.

 
Old 03-02-2012, 11:30 AM
 
3,579 posts, read 2,646,428 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eleanora1 View Post
The OP made an ignorant statement and you are agreeing with him.

The country was founded by the founding fathers who rebelled against the Brits and their refusal to grant Americans our independence from foreign powers. Most of them were not immigrants and non of them were illegals. The real irony is that most illegals, unlike most Americans today, are not descended from the colonists or the Spanish conquistadors. A majority of illegals are Mexican and therefore part of an occupying foreign just as arrogant as the Brits.

Illegals have no legal or moral claim on this country. They are nasty invaders who treat local customs and our laws with vast contempt. People like myself who the descendents of legal immigrants have every right to demand they go home.
Tell that to the Native American, who was pushed off his own land, raped and murdered, the survivors coralled into reservations to live in poverty and abuse from Church and guvment-run schools, a situation that exists to this day on many reservations. By the way, many of those "illegals" are Native North Americans.
 
Old 03-02-2012, 11:39 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by orogenicman View Post
Tell that to the Native American, who was pushed off his own land, raped and murdered, the survivors coralled into reservations to live in poverty and abuse from Church and guvment-run schools, a situation that exists to this day on many reservations. By the way, many of those "illegals" are Native North Americans.
Most illegals are Mexicans who are at least partially descended from the Spanish who raped and murdered. They have no business in this country. They certainly have no moral right to demand access to American citizenship or tax dollars. American laws are not subject to veto by Mexican nationals.


My ancestors did not rape or pillage or murder anyone. I'm sick of those who would imply otherwise.

I swear to god just about the least likeable thing about illegals is their arrogance. It's not enough to sneak into this country or live here twenty years without learning more than a few words of English or have five babies and demand we feed them. Oh no. They have to drag a chip on their shoulder and ignorance of American history with them. Oh and accuse natives of being horrible people as well when we have the nerve to tell them to leave!



Give it up. Americans have every legal and moral right set our borders and determine who gets to stay and who does not. No Mexican with a nine grade education and no English or job skills has the right to override our democracy.
 
Old 03-02-2012, 12:16 PM
 
Location: Center of the universe
24,757 posts, read 32,896,894 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eleanora1 View Post
Most illegals are Mexicans who are at least partially descended from the Spanish who raped and murdered. They have no business in this country. They certainly have no moral right to demand access to American citizenship or tax dollars. American laws are not subject to veto by Mexican nationals.
If Native Americans said you had no business in this country, would you agree?


Quote:
My ancestors did not rape or pillage or murder anyone. I'm sick of those who would imply otherwise.
How do you know?
 
Old 03-02-2012, 12:38 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucario View Post
If Native Americans said you had no business in this country, would you agree?

How do you know?
No one has any right to say I can't live here. Why would they? Incidentally I am a Native American under any reason definition as I was born here. And, no, my relatives that immigrated here did not murder, rape or pillage anyone. Why would you think otherwise? Or that the Indians in question did not themselves murder, rape or pillage? Neighboring Indian tribes were often at war with each other. North America was hardly a utopia until the Evil White Man showed up.

Modern America, LIKE EVERY OTHER NATION, has borders and boundaries. We have every right, LIKE EVERY OTHER NATION, to dictate who gets to live here and who does not.
 
Old 03-02-2012, 12:42 PM
 
1,448 posts, read 2,658,155 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucario View Post
If Native Americans said you had no business in this country, would you agree?




How do you know?

I would agree if they said that. A question for you. If white people were the original inhabitants of the US and the economic situation was the same in Mexico and the US as it is today would we have less illegal immigration.
 
Old 03-02-2012, 12:51 PM
 
Location: Center of the universe
24,757 posts, read 32,896,894 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eleanora1 View Post
No one has any right to say I can't live here. Why would they? Incidentally I am a Native American under any reason definition as I was born here.
In practical sense, yes. I don't dispute that, nor have I been getting into the Mexican illegal immigrant debate. Just repeating that many people here now did come from those who stole, etc., and everyone who calls themselves an American is doing so under the framework those migrants/settlers set up. That is indisputable.

Quote:
And, no, my relatives that immigrated here did not murder, rape or pillage anyone. Why would you think otherwise?

I didn't ask about your relatives who came here. I asked about your ancestors.


Quote:
Or that the Indians in question did not themselves murder, rape or pillage? Neighboring Indian tribes were often at war with each other. North America was hardly a utopia until the Evil White Man showed up.
No doubt. But the Evil White Man, as you say, did nothing to improve that situation.


Quote:

Modern America, LIKE EVERY OTHER NATION, has borders and boundaries. We have every right, LIKE EVERY OTHER NATION, to dictate who gets to live here and who does not.
Again, that was not what I've been debating.
 
Old 03-02-2012, 12:54 PM
 
Location: Center of the universe
24,757 posts, read 32,896,894 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by High Springs Gator View Post
I would agree if they said that. A question for you. If white people were the original inhabitants of the US and the economic situation was the same in Mexico and the US as it is today would we have less illegal immigration.
That would be impossible to determine.
 
Old 03-02-2012, 01:03 PM
 
3,493 posts, read 2,385,153 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucario View Post
In practical sense, yes. I don't dispute that, nor have I been getting into the Mexican illegal immigrant debate. Just repeating that many people here now did come from those who stole, etc., and everyone who calls themselves an American is doing so under the framework those migrants/settlers set up. That is indisputable.
As many people have pointed out to you, you are simply wrong. Most people in America are not descended from colonists or native Americans but rather from people who came later legally.

You're also ignorant of American history. The framework set up by the colonists is quite different from our modern day society. Unless you think that slavery is still legal and women are somehow denied the right to vote?



Contemporary Americans live in America and have the right to call themselves Americans. What else should we call ourselves? Would EVIL WHITE MEN WHO STOLE FROM INNOCENT INDIANS be more appropriate?

Quote:
I didn't ask about your relatives who came here. I asked about your ancestors.
Those are my ancestors. If you're going to widen the definition of ancestor beyond great-grandparent you might as well widen to ALL people. I suppose by that sort lunacy, I, like everyone on the planet, am indeed related to people who raped, pillaged and stole. But it's an idiotic definition that no one else would use.

Quote:
No doubt. But the Evil White Man, as you say, did nothing to improve that situation.
Depends on your definition of improvement.

Quote:
Again, that was not what I've been debating.
Oh yeah it is. Your implication has been clear: modern day Americans have no right to set up American borders because of what the colonists did in the 1600's. That's a silly argument to peg support of illegals around. It distorts both contemporary history and the history of the time frame.
 
Old 03-02-2012, 01:08 PM
 
Location: Jacurutu
5,302 posts, read 4,009,391 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Liquid Reigns View Post
...He started off fighting the Mexicans due to them killing his mother, later it involved the Americans as they encroached into his territory...
It was also his first wife, and three young children that were killed in the same raid (while the men were away from their camp)...

And not defined as "his territory" (there is still a mixed message from YOu whether it was just land use, or what was regarded as their own nation), as he wasn't the head of his own tribe, but later became a leader of different bands coming together...

Which brings up the point of whether settlers coming into an area are making a treaty with the true figurehead, or an opportunist...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Liquid Reigns View Post
...Again, it was Spanish Conquest that began his warring, not British or French. The Spanish didn't found the USA, they found the New World.
For the time of Geronimo, Mexican, not Spanish, and American, not French or British...

We have some people here saying to hit the history books, when the right nations aren't even referenced correctly...
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