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Old 02-23-2012, 07:21 AM
 
20,611 posts, read 12,389,012 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eleanora1 View Post
Oh yes it is accurate. My ancestors were both legal according to the laws of the day and expressly welcomed by the American government who wanted skilled laborers like my relatives to help settle this country. My ancestors, like many legal immigrants of the day (and unlike the massive numbers of illegals today who don't even have the high school diploma most contemporary Americans have), were actually more skilled than natives. Once they decided they'd had enough they shut the doors. The doors were shut from 1924 to 1965 in order to allow LEGAL immigrants to assimilate. The Austro-Hungarian Empire split up in part because of too many special interests vying for power based on ethnicity.

The only revisionist history is, as usual, yours.

We as Americans today have the exact same right. We have the inherent right to decide who is welcomed here and who is not. No one has the right to ignore our laws and overrule our democracy, let alone demand benefits for having done so as illegals do.

Tell me why you think otherwise.
Bravo!

It's now time to close down immigration again so w can get our act together. If Mexico is mad; not our problem, it's theirs.

 
Old 02-23-2012, 07:23 AM
 
20,611 posts, read 12,389,012 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IBMMuseum View Post

What I find most amazing, is an unwillingness to condemn any part of that society, when most members here belong to a social class (or more than one) that didn't have full citizenship rights (to vote) just 100 years ago...
That injustice was made right before most of us were born so it means nothing now.
 
Old 02-23-2012, 07:27 AM
 
20,611 posts, read 12,389,012 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IBMMuseum View Post
Except the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo and the Gadsen Purchase had no portion that was directed at the lands of Texas, to which the poster YOu were responding to had commented about...
Please, Mexico pulled a similar stunt against Spain maybe 30 years before. Had Mexico LOST it's war with Spain, things would've been much different and it's also possible that Spain would've SOLD what is now Mexico to the US.
 
Old 02-23-2012, 07:31 AM
 
20,611 posts, read 12,389,012 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ovcatto View Post
Which is it none or for the most part?



Yes the Mexican founders of Texas and California were nothing but mere peasants.
The Mexican population that remained in the Texas republic faced open hostility and the constant threat of violence. Many families were forced to abandoned their land, cattle, and possessions and flee for their lives. Regardless of their social status, no Mexicans in the territory were safe. The family of Martìn De León, empresario and founder of the prosperous Mexican colony at Victoria on the lower Guadalupe River, fled to Louisiana after Agapito, one of the sons, was murdered by Mabry B. "Mustang" Gray, who was caught rustling De León cattle, and, Fernando, another son, was wounded in a similar confrontation. Other prominent Mexican residents of Victoria, including the Benavides and Carbajal, families were driven from their farms and ranches and into exile.

Juan Seguín, who had organized the Mexican unit of the Texas militia that served as a the rear guard of Sam Houston's retreating army and fought bravely at the battle of San Jacinto, and who was the only Mexican to serve in the senate of the Texas republic, eventually had to flee to safety in Mexico and take his family with him. By the end of 1840s over 200 prominent Spanish families that had lived in San Antonio since the early 1800s, were gone, their properties seized by whites. The only sanctuary for refugees in the interim republic was in the Mexican settlements along the Rio Grande, especially in the lower river valley.
The Hispanic Experience - Stolen Birthright



Like I said, who says Americans don't get irony.
Sounds like what the Spanish did to the Indians too. Spanish people are also white. Today ALL of the descendents of those people back there living there now are American: Indian, Spanish, Mexican, anglo, Black, etc.
 
Old 02-23-2012, 07:33 AM
 
14,307 posts, read 11,195,062 times
Reputation: 2130
Quote:
Originally Posted by ovcatto View Post
Which is it none or for the most part?



Yes the Mexican founders of Texas and California were nothing but mere peasants.
The Mexican population that remained in the Texas republic faced open hostility and the constant threat of violence. Many families were forced to abandoned their land, cattle, and possessions and flee for their lives. Regardless of their social status, no Mexicans in the territory were safe. The family of Martìn De León, empresario and founder of the prosperous Mexican colony at Victoria on the lower Guadalupe River, fled to Louisiana after Agapito, one of the sons, was murdered by Mabry B. "Mustang" Gray, who was caught rustling De León cattle, and, Fernando, another son, was wounded in a similar confrontation. Other prominent Mexican residents of Victoria, including the Benavides and Carbajal, families were driven from their farms and ranches and into exile.

Juan Seguín, who had organized the Mexican unit of the Texas militia that served as a the rear guard of Sam Houston's retreating army and fought bravely at the battle of San Jacinto, and who was the only Mexican to serve in the senate of the Texas republic, eventually had to flee to safety in Mexico and take his family with him. By the end of 1840s over 200 prominent Spanish families that had lived in San Antonio since the early 1800s, were gone, their properties seized by whites. The only sanctuary for refugees in the interim republic was in the Mexican settlements along the Rio Grande, especially in the lower river valley.
The Hispanic Experience - Stolen Birthright



Like I said, who says Americans don't get irony.
The peasants I was referring to are the reconquista kind alive today holding some grudge over a long ago past. Why isn't the Mexican government addressing this stolen land argument with our government today? Simple, because they have no argument or claim. The lands in question were bought and paid for by the U.S. long ago. Wars have been fought and lands have exchanged hands since time began. Deal with it.

As for your link, nice anti-anglo smear piece. None of that has anything to do with any of us alive today anyways. Those people are all dead now.
 
Old 02-23-2012, 09:07 AM
 
3,493 posts, read 2,398,149 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IBMMuseum View Post
Without an aspect of "illegality", there also cannot be a reference to "legality"...

And "Ellis Island" is an extremely limited context of immigration. In fact it is more specifically European immigration, denoting that "other than European" was not as ideal of immigrants. I've said it before, the view is here is that we got our most ideal immigrants at a time of no immigration law, and our best citizens when there were minimal or no requirements to naturalize.

What I find most amazing, is an unwillingness to condemn any part of that society, when most members here belong to a social class (or more than one) that didn't have full citizenship rights (to vote) just 100 years ago...
They were obeying the laws of the day. So of course there can be a reference to legality. You're also utterly ignoring the fact that immigrants (LEGAL immigrants) who could not succeed in America left. They had no safety nets whatsoever as they largely came here before the founding of the welfare state many contemporary illegals love so much.

That meant no have a baby on American soil and get $300 a month for food. No subsidized housing or press one for English or ESL classes for their kids. It sure as hell meant no kidney transplants. ONE THIRD of ALL Italian immigrants went back home because they couldn't manage in American society.

Just because YOU don't know history does not mean the rest of us are ignorant of it.

Your last paragraph is just pure obfuscation. Where have any of said that we loved society back then? As I pointed out American was founded in part on slavery. That's pure evil. My own grandmother was denied the right to vote until her 20's. But they had a handful of right ideas then. One of them was that immigrants should not be allowed access to any handouts, let alone the literal handouts that illegals love to demand from Americans.

Quote:
Originally Posted by IBMMuseum View Post
In reality, a time when the United States started worrying more about what immigrants were coming from Europe...
And what's entire wrong with that? As opposed to our time when we all too often give ridiculous preferences to who you know instead of what you know . . .

A big part of it was to allow people to assimilate into our society. There's nothing wrong with trying to help create a unified country with a shared linguistic base.
 
Old 02-23-2012, 09:26 AM
 
Location: California
2,477 posts, read 1,720,291 times
Reputation: 299
Quote:
Originally Posted by ovcatto View Post
Which is it none or for the most part?



Yes the Mexican founders of Texas and California were nothing but mere peasants.
The Mexican population that remained in the Texas republic faced open hostility and the constant threat of violence. Many families were forced to abandoned their land, cattle, and possessions and flee for their lives. Regardless of their social status, no Mexicans in the territory were safe. The family of Martìn De León, empresario and founder of the prosperous Mexican colony at Victoria on the lower Guadalupe River, fled to Louisiana after Agapito, one of the sons, was murdered by Mabry B. "Mustang" Gray, who was caught rustling De León cattle, and, Fernando, another son, was wounded in a similar confrontation. Other prominent Mexican residents of Victoria, including the Benavides and Carbajal, families were driven from their farms and ranches and into exile.

Juan Seguín, who had organized the Mexican unit of the Texas militia that served as a the rear guard of Sam Houston's retreating army and fought bravely at the battle of San Jacinto, and who was the only Mexican to serve in the senate of the Texas republic, eventually had to flee to safety in Mexico and take his family with him. By the end of 1840s over 200 prominent Spanish families that had lived in San Antonio since the early 1800s, were gone, their properties seized by whites. The only sanctuary for refugees in the interim republic was in the Mexican settlements along the Rio Grande, especially in the lower river valley.
The Hispanic Experience - Stolen Birthright



Like I said, who says Americans don't get irony.
You are attempting to use Vogel as a citation? You do realize he is a Chicano Nationalist and a Socialist at that. His writings have been shown to be radical and more fiction than fact. Somebody should tell Vogel that the De Leon family was Spanish, not Mexican and that Seguin's reason for fleeing to Mexico in 1842 was for smuggling and betrayal.

Quote:
Seguín, the only Mexican Texan in the Senate of the republic, served in the Second, Third, and Fourth Congress. He served on the Committee of Claims and Accounts and, despite his lack of English, was chairman of the Committee on Military Affairs. Among his legislative initiatives were efforts to have the laws of the new republic printed in Spanish. In the spring of 1840 he resigned his Senate seat to assist Gen. Antonio Canales, a Federalist, in an abortive campaign against the Centralists, but upon his return to San Antonio at the end of the year he found himself selected mayor. In this office Seguín became embroiled in growing hostilities between Anglos and Mexican Texans. He faced personal problems as well. He had gained the enmity of some residents by speculating in land. He financed his expedition in support of Canales by mortgaging property and undertook a smuggling venture in order to pay off the debt. Although upon his return from Mexico he came under suspicion of having betrayed the failed Texan Santa Fe expedition, he still managed to be reelected mayor at the end of 1841. His continuing conflicts with Anglo squatters on city property, combined with his business correspondence with Mexico, incriminated him in Gen. Rafael Vásquez's invasion of San Antonio in March 1842. In fear for his safety, Seguín resigned as mayor on April 18, 1842, and shortly thereafter fled to Mexico with his family.

Last edited by Liquid Reigns; 02-23-2012 at 09:39 AM..
 
Old 02-23-2012, 12:36 PM
 
Location: Palo Alto
12,172 posts, read 6,756,005 times
Reputation: 4172
Quote:
Originally Posted by tluv00 View Post
Illegal Immigrants. Ask the Native Americans. You are all hypocrites and are the descendants of illegal immigrants. Of course back then they where called Pioneers and Explorers but it's the same difference.
Native Americans from Mexico used to sacrifice humans to appease their God's. The Mayans were savage. Yet you passed your darn laws and chastised us because we wanted to engage in the same actions today. You are all hypocrites.

Signed,

Jeff Dahmer and Ted Bundy and MDK.
 
Old 02-23-2012, 01:20 PM
 
Location: Jacurutu
5,302 posts, read 4,031,386 times
Reputation: 601
Quote:
Originally Posted by Packard fan View Post
Eleanora1 was discussing those people AFTER they came to the US. The Austro-Hungarians learned ENGLISH and became AMERICAN.
The conversation was slightly wider than that. "Elanora1" has a unique ethnic heritage that carries their tradition of not intermarrying surrounding cultures that are different, and retaining an exclusive language that they use themselves for ceremony and interaction. I fully realize the benefits and beliefs of why their society and peoples recognize the priority in that behavior.

YOu have discussed YOur own heritage in non-flattering stereotypes as well (there is an excellent thread on the Genealogy forum currently about it too), suggesting they were not assimilating to the United States as well as could be expected. Mennonites are another isolationist group that rarely marry outside their society, and prefer to speak German (which will really throw YOu to see in Mexico, with the Mennonite communities having the same characteristics there). So the concept is not foreign (pun perhaps intended) to us, but definitely is in larger numbers with Hispanic immigrants.

History is an excellent teacher, but I see instant denial when it is brought up here...
 
Old 02-23-2012, 01:31 PM
 
Location: Jacurutu
5,302 posts, read 4,031,386 times
Reputation: 601
Quote:
Originally Posted by Liquid Reigns View Post
They were Mexican Citizens, they were American Immigrants (as stated) to Mexico. The Mexicans who immigrate here still call themselves Mexicans. In this instance it refers to their heritage.

Actually there was a 1 year moratorium on the Americans migrating there having slaves, after the 1st year they were to be freed. They got around it by calling them indentured servants for life.
Is there a difference in what they are by terminology?...

Read more about what YOu are calling a "moratorium", it wasn't a grandfathering clause set from the time of immigrating, but a single year that the entire area was allowed to adjust to Mexican law...

Mexicans immigrating here are absolutely correct on the definition until they are naturalized here, they are Mexican Nationals...
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