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Old 03-07-2012, 10:57 PM
 
3,951 posts, read 3,582,217 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blacknight04 View Post
People in glass houses don't throw stones. How many hoaxes and lies have been pepetrated by so called "anti-illegals"? Just because you don't agree with what they have to say doesn't make their statements inaccurate or unbelievable.
Point out the hoaxes and lies and I will agree that they are hoaxes and lies. I layed out what I was saying in my post in a way that I thought was pretty clear. Once again, I will repeat: People who support illegal immigrants often make statements that attempt to paint a picture of illegal immigration as being something without taking into consideration the other end of the spectrum. I think that here we do a good job in hearing people claims of why they should stay, but I think most of us have heard it for too long. When I read these articles, for the most part, I only see quotes about why illegal immigrants "deserve to stay here," but I don't see the same people admitting to the shadiness and cost of it all.
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Old 03-08-2012, 06:07 AM
 
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They sound racist.

Why wouldn't they want to help a white or black or latino or other American citizen?
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Old 03-08-2012, 06:29 AM
 
14,307 posts, read 11,146,155 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blacknight04 View Post
People in glass houses don't throw stones. How many hoaxes and lies have been pepetrated by so called "anti-illegals"? Just because you don't agree with what they have to say doesn't make their statements inaccurate or unbelievable.
I think the truth or lies on either side can be dug up with a little research. There is a big difference between a little white lie and a giant whopper also. Some things are just obvious about illegal immigration starting with the fact that they all violated our immigration laws and working here without authorization.
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Old 03-08-2012, 07:52 AM
 
3,493 posts, read 2,385,436 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blacknight04 View Post
They can do whatever they want with their money. You guys complain about everything!!
When they get tax breaks it isn't just their money. It's subsidized money by the American tax payer. You guys want to reward people who break into this country with all sorts of freebees. Why? The people in question can always apply here as foreign students. Why should they get American citizenship and a free degree because their rotten parents are criminals who have violated our laws?
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Old 03-09-2012, 08:16 AM
 
1,150 posts, read 990,803 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blacknight04 View Post
They can do whatever they want with their money. You guys complain about everything!!
They don't have the right to spend their money to encourage, or assist illegal aliens to remain in this country. If I give money to someone to help them commit a crime, is that my right simply because it's my money? If someone wants to give a member of Congress $10,000 to vote a certain way, is that their right becuse it's their money?
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Old 03-09-2012, 09:42 AM
 
4,749 posts, read 3,464,997 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SoEdible View Post
Also, a lot of these folks just don't get it. Do you think they've discovered the true costs of illegal immigration? Have they actually accepted the negative aspect of illegal immigration? If so, then it is obvious that they simply do not care about those who are not illegal. Charity for illegal immigrants should not hurt those who are here legally.
Have you ever considered that maybe they have considered it? I think that anti-illegal immigration honks are wasting their time, wasting their energy, wasting their breath on illegal immigration. The only way they hurt people who are here already is by out-competing them, and frankly, if you can't beat out an illegal immigrant for a job, you're probably in for a long life. That's harsh, but that's reality. The people who are sitting around complaining about illegals taking their jobs aren't working hard enough to improve their own lives.
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Old 03-09-2012, 11:22 AM
 
Location: Maryland
15,179 posts, read 15,809,199 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chickenfriedbananas View Post
Have you ever considered that maybe they have considered it? I think that anti-illegal immigration honks are wasting their time, wasting their energy, wasting their breath on illegal immigration. The only way they hurt people who are here already is by out-competing them, and frankly, if you can't beat out an illegal immigrant for a job, you're probably in for a long life. That's harsh, but that's reality. The people who are sitting around complaining about illegals taking their jobs aren't working hard enough to improve their own lives.
I hope you realize only 3% of illegals are picking crops. In fact, the list of jobs "Americans won't do" continues to grow as greedy employers enjoy profiting from cheap labor. Unless you are a professional, your job may ultimately join that list. Even some professionals aren't safe. If you wake up one day and discover YOU have been replaced by an illegal who is willing to work for less, perhaps you'll change your tune. Sadly, this is the fate suffered by many citizens, and is a major factor for the increasing decline of our middle class; that, along with outsourcing to China and India, and in-sourcing through work visas. While most illegals are uneducated and low skilled, many hold professional jobs making very good salaries.

Furthermore, the corporate elite don't care about you or any other U.S. citizen. They'll do anything to make a buck, even if it means replacing millions of qualified citizens. But, you are certainly entitled to remain complacent.

Quote:
The study found that 10 percent of illegal workers are in management, business and professional jobs, compared with 35 percent of the native-born.
U.S. has as many as 12 million illegal immigrants, report says | The San Diego Union-Tribune

And, this was 6 years ago. Who knows how many are employed in such positions now. Ten percent or more of an estimated 8 million employed illegals. You do the math.
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Old 03-09-2012, 12:27 PM
 
4,749 posts, read 3,464,997 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
I hope you realize only 3% of illegals are picking crops.
Three percent of illegals might be picking crops, but that doesn't mean that three percent of crop pickers are illegal, now does it -- the number could be (and likely is) higher than that, perhaps substantially higher. Let's not play games with statistics here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
In fact, the list of jobs "Americans won't do" continues to grow as greedy employers enjoy profiting from cheap labor. Unless you are a professional, your job may ultimately join that list. Even some professionals aren't safe. If you wake up one day and discover YOU have been replaced by an illegal who is willing to work for less, perhaps you'll change your tune. Sadly, this is the fate suffered by many citizens, and is a major factor for the increasing decline of our middle class; that, along with outsourcing to China and India, and in-sourcing through work visas. While most illegals are uneducated and low skilled, many hold professional jobs making very good salaries.
No, you did not 'get' what I was saying at all, which probably has a lot to do with why a lot of the same kinds of people keep having problems with illegal immigration and immigration as a whole. I said that illegal immigrants weren't just taking jobs that Americans didn't want to do -- although I do believe that is indeed the case in many situations. But more to the point here, I think illegal immigrants are taking jobs that Americans not only don't want to do, but simply cannot do as cost effectively as the illegal hands that are hired. Employers care about a few basic things: profits, productivity, efficiency, and the like. They haven't the time to get sentimental. Their hiring of labor, foreign-born or domestic, at-home or abroad, legal or not, has nothing to do with humanitarianism; it's done to sustain their corporate well-being. Keep this in mind at all times.

That's why I think everyone is dancing around the issue. I think companies are afraid to say it because it sounds more politically correct to say "they're taking jobs nobody else wants" than it does to say "They're simply better and harder-working than the lazy, whiny, spoiled sacks of flour we've used our tax dollars to educate and tried to raise." If farm owners or factory managers or executives were to put it that way, well, people here wouldn't be able to handle it. They'd cry and pout and feel insulted.

But go ahead and feel insulted, I say. And go ahead and crack down on illegal immigration. You guys don't get it. If they have to just stop what they're doing and move their base of operations elsewhere or simply reduce the scale of their operations overseas and let some other competitor buy them out, then they'll do it. And all of those false promises of more jobs for johnny the fat American jackass will evaporate in short time.

Quote:
Furthermore, the corporate elite don't care about you or any other U.S. citizen. They'll do anything to make a buck, even if it means replacing millions of qualified citizens. But, you are certainly entitled to remain complacent.
Oh I get it completely; I think it's opponents of illegals who don't want to accept that truth; who want to believe that there's something the government can do to keep foreigners out. There is a way to keep them out of course, but to do that would ultimately mean giving jobs to other countries who want the labor more. America is stronger because new waves of immigrants come in and compete twice as hard to achieve standards of living that most of us take for granted while stuffing our faces and playing video games.

It's precisely because we take our wealth and position for granted that we get mad when someone else comes in from a different society with a markedly different appearance and with a funny sounding language to boot, and makes it clear that they are here to compete with us for our lifestyle. Ordinary people who grew up here under the misguided belief that they were just 'entitled' to an SUV by holding down an hourly job somewhere get a rude awakening when they are suddenly surrounded by people who are willing to work for less money than they are, for twice as long, and under conditions that are probably ten times as sh*tty. Most people here would never do that because they would feel that their dignity has been violated, and that they just deserve more. By contrast, these immigrants definitely WILL just shut up and do it because they assume that in the long run it will be worth it, whatever the sacrifice.

The Mexicans and Asians are, to most of us, just like that annoying happy-go-lucky new employee at work who's willing to do whatever it takes to get that promotion. Most of us just assumed we'll get it eventually because we share the same background as the boss and that we just somehow deserve it and we'll get 'noticed'. Then these little bastards come out of nowhere and show us how its done, and that forces the rest of us to up our game, which we never counted on doing. Well, tough sh*t. You see, the hard part is, in this global economy, you're not just competing against guys who come into the country; you're competing against people halfway around the world you don't even see. It doesn't matter. You've got not choice. You HAVE to compete. Your children HAVE to compete. If you don't teach your children this, then you're setting them up for failure -- period. Believe me, even if that's not your bottom line, it's someone else's. And you'd all better get used to it.
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Old 03-09-2012, 03:27 PM
 
Location: Maryland
15,179 posts, read 15,809,199 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chickenfriedbananas View Post
Three percent of illegals might be picking crops, but that doesn't mean that three percent of crop pickers are illegal, now does it -- the number could be (and likely is) higher than that, perhaps substantially higher. Let's not play games with statistics here.
Playing games with statistics? Perhaps you'd like to quote where I even remotely implied that 3% of crop pickers are illegal. No, I said 3% of illegal aliens are crop pickers, which also means 97% of illegal aliens are NOT crop pickers. Is that a statistics game, or is that a fact?

Quote:
Originally Posted by chickenfriedbananas View Post
No, you did not 'get' what I was saying at all, which probably has a lot to do with why a lot of the same kinds of people keep having problems with illegal immigration and immigration as a whole. I said that illegal immigrants weren't just taking jobs that Americans didn't want to do -- although I do believe that is indeed the case in many situations. But more to the point here, I think illegal immigrants are taking jobs that Americans not only don't want to do, but simply cannot do as cost effectively as the illegal hands that are hired. Employers care about a few basic things: profits, productivity, efficiency, and the like. They haven't the time to get sentimental. Their hiring of labor, foreign-born or domestic, at-home or abroad, legal or not, has nothing to do with humanitarianism; it's done to sustain their corporate well-being. Keep this in mind at all times.
Please explain your "same kind of people" comment.

Illegal immigration is only "cost-effective" for their employers, who profit from lower overhead due to reduced wages, and in many cases, paying no taxes or insurance, or other expenses a legitimate business incurs. In fact, that's a major factor in their ability to low bid on construction contracts, which incidentally, has caused numerous legitimate contractors to go bankrupt. But, you probably aren't concerned about those businesses. After all, they need to get with the program and violate our laws by employing illegal workers. Right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by chickenfriedbananas View Post
That's why I think everyone is dancing around the issue. I think companies are afraid to say it because it sounds more politically correct to say "they're taking jobs nobody else wants" than it does to say "They're simply better and harder-working than the lazy, whiny, spoiled sacks of flour we've used our tax dollars to educate and tried to raise." If farm owners or factory managers or executives were to put it that way, well, people here wouldn't be able to handle it. They'd cry and pout and feel insulted.
Illegals are better and work harder than citizens? Well, the same could be said of slaves. After all, fear is an extremely powerful motivator. What choice do illegals have, but to work hard? It's either work 70+ hours in a week with no overtime pay, or return home. No, they aren't employed because they have a superior work ethic. They're employed because they are easily exploited, and companies are saving millions from their cheap labor. You're right. Most U.S. citizens will not allow themselves to be worked like slaves and paid peanuts.

Obviously, you hold a very low opinion of U.S. workers. Are you employed? If so, do you include yourself among the lazy, whiny, spoiled sacks of flour?

Quote:
Originally Posted by chickenfriedbananas View Post
But go ahead and feel insulted, I say. And go ahead and crack down on illegal immigration. You guys don't get it. If they have to just stop what they're doing and move their base of operations elsewhere or simply reduce the scale of their operations overseas and let some other competitor buy them out, then they'll do it. And all of those false promises of more jobs for johnny the fat American jackass will evaporate in short time.
Over 80,000 U.S. companies have already closed operations in this country for overseas foreign cheap labor. And, most of those companies will never return. To compound problems, we have countless others replacing U.S. workers with cheap, illegal labor in this country. So, tell me, if most U.S. companies prefer to employ illegal aliens or relocate for cheap labor, what jobs will remain for U.S. workers? Oh, that's right, the faineant American jackasses don't want jobs. And those who do, need to lower their expectation for making a decent wage. If we expect to compete against foreign slave wages, we must be willing to accept slave wages.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chickenfriedbananas View Post
Oh I get it completely; I think it's opponents of illegals who don't want to accept that truth; who want to believe that there's something the government can do to keep foreigners out. There is a way to keep them out of course, but to do that would ultimately mean giving jobs to other countries who want the labor more. America is stronger because new waves of immigrants come in and compete twice as hard to achieve standards of living that most of us take for granted while stuffing our faces and playing video games.

It's precisely because we take our wealth and position for granted that we get mad when someone else comes in from a different society with a markedly different appearance and with a funny sounding language to boot, and makes it clear that they are here to compete with us for our lifestyle. Ordinary people who grew up here under the misguided belief that they were just 'entitled' to an SUV by holding down an hourly job somewhere get a rude awakening when they are suddenly surrounded by people who are willing to work for less money than they are, for twice as long, and under conditions that are probably ten times as sh*tty. Most people here would never do that because they would feel that their dignity has been violated, and that they just deserve more. By contrast, these immigrants definitely WILL just shut up and do it because they assume that in the long run it will be worth it, whatever the sacrifice.
It isn't a matter of keeping "foreigners" out. And frankly, I don't give a damn who they are, what they look like, or where they came from. At issue is massive, unabated illegal immigration. Sure, companies profit. But, it is the U.S. taxpayer who is forced to support this not-so-cheap labor, and we're sick of it.

FYI, no one gave me a damn thing. Had I wanted to work a sh*tty job, I wouldn't have worked my butt off earning two degrees. I have made sacrifices so I wouldn't have to "shut up" or settle for a crap job. If you have a problem with that, so be it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chickenfriedbananas View Post
The Mexicans and Asians are, to most of us, just like that annoying happy-go-lucky new employee at work who's willing to do whatever it takes to get that promotion. Most of us just assumed we'll get it eventually because we share the same background as the boss and that we just somehow deserve it and we'll get 'noticed'. Then these little bastards come out of nowhere and show us how its done, and that forces the rest of us to up our game, which we never counted on doing. Well, tough sh*t. You see, the hard part is, in this global economy, you're not just competing against guys who come into the country; you're competing against people halfway around the world you don't even see. It doesn't matter. You've got not choice. You HAVE to compete. Your children HAVE to compete. If you don't teach your children this, then you're setting them up for failure -- period. Believe me, even if that's not your bottom line, it's someone else's. And you'd all better get used to it.
Who the hell has mentioned Asians? The last time I checked, we do not have massive numbers of Asians living in this country illegally.

Sorry, but we do not HAVE to tolerate foreigners entering our country without permission, or deliberately overstaying visas. We certainly do not HAVE to allow our country to be overrun by parasitic illegal aliens to remain a global competitor. Nor do we HAVE to compete against them in our own country. Furthermore, if you want to discuss legal immigration vis-a-vis the global economy, start a thread in the appropriate forum.

This is still OUR country, and we will decide who will have the privilege of living here. So, YOU had better get used to it, because we have had enough of this bull.
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Old 03-09-2012, 04:48 PM
 
4,749 posts, read 3,464,997 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
Illegal immigration is only "cost-effective" for their employers, who profit from lower overhead due to reduced wages, and in many cases, paying no taxes or insurance, or other expenses a legitimate business incurs. In fact, that's a major factor in their ability to low bid on construction contracts, which incidentally, has caused numerous legitimate contractors to go bankrupt. But, you probably aren't concerned about those businesses. After all, they need to get with the program and violate our laws by employing illegal workers. Right?
Illegal aliens do not cause legitimate contractors to go out of business; poor business management practices and shoddy work are what force contractors out of business, whether they're legitimate or not. If contractors do good work, people know about it. And if they don't know about it, then they're not marketing effectively. It's actually the businesses that over-use illegal aliens that are more likely to run into problems because they're typically the same sort of "fly by the seat of their pants'" operations that end up doing bad work, get sued, get bad reviews on Yelp, and appeal only to idiot consumers who buy strictly on price, which is why those types of contractors would hire illegals. I'm sure that some can survive indefinitely doing this, but they end up creating problems for themselves because of the way they do business. The legitimate ones that go out of business, though, go out of business because they're either not good enough or not aggressive enough in getting business for themselves.

Years ago, I used to run an association whose members were involved as subcontractors. I know how the contracting business works fairly well, so you're not gonna convince me with these sorts of common folk arguments. I don't doubt that there are illegal aliens who get hired by contractors, but I also don't doubt that the "problem" is highly exaggerated. If you ever join or work around business leagues or associations for any appreciable period of time, you'd realize that most of the "problems" in an industry -- pick one -- are created by other petty, jealous business owners who can't stand the sight of their competitors and make sh*t up about them, hoping that other members will stop offering them help such as referrals from their own business for jobs they either cannot or will not do; or hope that regulators will go sniff them out for the hell of it. It's jealousy; it can't be taken as fact.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
Illegals are better and work harder than citizens? Well, the same could be said of slaves. After all, fear is an extremely powerful motivator. What choice do illegals have, but to work hard? It's either work 70+ hours in a week with no overtime pay, or return home. No, they aren't employed because they have a superior work ethic. They're employed because they are easily exploited, and companies are saving millions from their cheap labor. You're right. Most U.S. citizens will not allow themselves to be worked like slaves and paid peanuts.
Illegals are indeed exploited, but not all illegals end up digging in rock quarries, either. Who knows, they might be pouring coffee at some flapjack house for all you know, getting tips to boot. Sure, they might feel that their options are limited and might take the job more seriously. Might be why they're less likely to call in "sick" or come in hung over the way some 21-year-old struggling general studies major might. The illegals are there to work, and the employers who knowingly hire them know that. Heck, I doubt most companies knowingly hire illegals these days -- too much sh*t involved. The illegals probably have documents to show eligibility and the employers probably just don't ask questions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
Obviously, you hold a very low opinion of U.S. workers. Are you employed? If so, do you include yourself among the lazy, whiny, spoiled sacks of flour?
Yes, actually I'm very employed. I've also been around the world and have a pretty good perspective on Americans relative to people in the rest of the world. Americans are good workers in a lot of ways -- would want an American over a European or other Westerners who expect 6 weeks of vacation every year. But put us up against Asians, Indians, and Hispanics, and it's a different story. They'll do whatever it takes to put food on their table and have decent clothes to wear. Can't say I entirely blame Americans...I guess it's the product of living in a society that has had everything for as long as we can remember. But it is what it is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
Over 80,000 U.S. companies have already closed operations in this country for overseas foreign cheap labor. And, most of those companies will never return. To compound problems, we have countless others replacing U.S. workers with cheap, illegal labor in this country. So, tell me, if most U.S. companies prefer to employ illegal aliens or relocate for cheap labor, what jobs will remain for U.S. workers? Oh, that's right, the faineant American jackasses don't want jobs. And those who do, need to lower their expectation for making a decent wage. If we expect to compete against foreign slave wages, we must be willing to accept slave wages.
The jobs that will remain for U.S. workers will be for those who are willing to compete and devote most of their time and energy to working their way up the chain. Sitting around and blaming U.S. businesses for not hiring you and chasing illegal aliens is not going to solve the problem. It is astounding to believe that illegals are blamed for employability issues of legal aliens when there are so many advantages of being native and legal -- mobility being one of them. If you don't like your job, you can just quit and go to the next one; if an illegal doesn't like his job, I would imagine that quitting opens up a can of worms. Illegal aliens do not take jobs from Americans who want to work; they take jobs from Americans who either don't want to work -- or simply cannot fill a given position because of sloth or stupidity. Either way, Americans don't lose.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
It isn't a matter of keeping "foreigners" out. And frankly, I don't give a damn who they are, what they look like, or where they came from. At issue is massive, unabated illegal immigration. Sure, companies profit. But, it is the U.S. taxpayer who is forced to support this not-so-cheap labor, and we're sick of it.
U.S. taxpayers are forced to support illegal aliens minimally; the illegal aliens are also forced to pay taxes that they will probably never receive any benefit from personally.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
FYI, no one gave me a damn thing. Had I wanted to work a sh*tty job, I wouldn't have worked my butt off earning two degrees. I have made sacrifices so I wouldn't have to "shut up" or settle for a crap job. If you have a problem with that, so be it.
I don't know what line of work you're in but I'm pretty confident that your career prospects are in no way affected by illegal aliens -- especially if you're a holder of two degrees. If anyone's impacted by illegal labor, it's probably minimum wage employees with limited mobility, but not a degree holder, let alone a two-degree applicant. It is definitely possible, though, that you're getting squeezed in a tight global job market -- that I could see. But that threat's from outside, not from within. As I told you, be prepared to compete for your job. Maybe learn a second language and move to a different part of the world. I mean, that's what most of our ancestors did when coming to this country. Now it's our turn, I reckon. Are we really so arrogant as to believe all opportunities should just fall right into our laps?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
Sorry, but we do not HAVE to tolerate foreigners entering our country without permission, or deliberately overstaying visas. We certainly do not HAVE to allow our country to be overrun by parasitic illegal aliens to remain a global competitor. Nor do we HAVE to compete against them in our own country.
Fine, then they'll compete against you from wherever they live. Why do you think factories close here and move to China or Vietnam - because American entrepreneurs want to try authentic Ramen and Pho? They concluded that American workers are over-priced and aren't productive enough. See, you may not think you're competing against Chinese workers, but Chinese workers are competing against you. You may not think your produce farmers are competing against Brazilian farmers, but Brazilian farmers are competing against American farmers.

We ought not to support illegal immigration, I agree; but we ought to make immigration even easier than it is now. Anyone who wants to come here and make contributions and can support themselves, should come. Shutting foreigners out is a stupid idea proposed by people who just don't know what they're doing or talking about. New people means new labor, and it also means new consumers and new markets. It's new energy coming into an economy.
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