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Old 03-09-2012, 04:55 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
I hope you realize only 3% of illegals are picking crops. In fact, the list of jobs "Americans won't do" continues to grow as greedy employers enjoy profiting from cheap labor. Unless you are a professional, your job may ultimately join that list. Even some professionals aren't safe. If you wake up one day and discover YOU have been replaced by an illegal who is willing to work for less, perhaps you'll change your tune. Sadly, this is the fate suffered by many citizens, and is a major factor for the increasing decline of our middle class; that, along with outsourcing to China and India, and in-sourcing through work visas. While most illegals are uneducated and low skilled, many hold professional jobs making very good salaries.

Furthermore, the corporate elite don't care about you or any other U.S. citizen. They'll do anything to make a buck, even if it means replacing millions of qualified citizens. But, you are certainly entitled to remain complacent.


U.S. has as many as 12 million illegal immigrants, report says | The San Diego Union-Tribune

And, this was 6 years ago. Who knows how many are employed in such positions now. Ten percent or more of an estimated 8 million employed illegals. You do the math.
Isn't it truly disgusting when the claim is made that Americans aren't doing enough to keep their jobs so they are supposedly too stupid or lazy to compete with an illegal alien? I could just blow a cork when I hear that one. The truth is that it is all about the bottom line profit with these greedy employers. Illegals work cheaper and that is the only reason they hire them not because Americans are incapable of doing a good job. I swear these supporters of illegal aiiens can come up with the most rididulous excuses and lies for advocating for their presence here. Note, how they are even trying to justify the employers breaking the law by hiring illegals and that it is ok just as long as they make more money? Lord, I hope these kinds of people aren't U.S. citizens with attitudes like that.
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Old 03-09-2012, 05:09 PM
 
Location: Maryland
15,179 posts, read 15,819,795 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chickenfriedbananas View Post
Illegal aliens do not cause legitimate contractors to go out of business; poor business management practices and shoddy work are what force contractors out of business, whether they're legitimate or not. If contractors do good work, people know about it. And if they don't know about it, then they're not marketing effectively. It's actually the businesses that over-use illegal aliens that are more likely to run into problems because they're typically the same sort of "fly by the seat of their pants'" operations that end up doing bad work, get sued, get bad reviews on Yelp, and appeal only to idiot consumers who buy strictly on price, which is why those types of contractors would hire illegals. I'm sure that some can survive indefinitely doing this, but they end up creating problems for themselves because of the way they do business. The legitimate ones that go out of business, though, go out of business because they're either not good enough or not aggressive enough in getting business for themselves.

Years ago, I used to run an association whose members were involved as subcontractors. I know how the contracting business works fairly well, so you're not gonna convince me with these sorts of common folk arguments. I don't doubt that there are illegal aliens who get hired by contractors, but I also don't doubt that the "problem" is highly exaggerated. If you ever join or work around business leagues or associations for any appreciable period of time, you'd realize that most of the "problems" in an industry -- pick one -- are created by other petty, jealous business owners who can't stand the sight of their competitors and make sh*t up about them, hoping that other members will stop offering them help such as referrals from their own business for jobs they either cannot or will not do; or hope that regulators will go sniff them out for the hell of it. It's jealousy; it can't be taken as fact.



Illegals are indeed exploited, but not all illegals end up digging in rock quarries, either. Who knows, they might be pouring coffee at some flapjack house for all you know, getting tips to boot. Sure, they might feel that their options are limited and might take the job more seriously. Might be why they're less likely to call in "sick" or come in hung over the way some 21-year-old struggling general studies major might. The illegals are there to work, and the employers who knowingly hire them know that. Heck, I doubt most companies knowingly hire illegals these days -- too much sh*t involved. The illegals probably have documents to show eligibility and the employers probably just don't ask questions.



Yes, actually I'm very employed. I've also been around the world and have a pretty good perspective on Americans relative to people in the rest of the world. Americans are good workers in a lot of ways -- would want an American over a European or other Westerners who expect 6 weeks of vacation every year. But put us up against Asians, Indians, and Hispanics, and it's a different story. They'll do whatever it takes to put food on their table and have decent clothes to wear. Can't say I entirely blame Americans...I guess it's the product of living in a society that has had everything for as long as we can remember. But it is what it is.



The jobs that will remain for U.S. workers will be for those who are willing to compete and devote most of their time and energy to working their way up the chain. Sitting around and blaming U.S. businesses for not hiring you and chasing illegal aliens is not going to solve the problem. It is astounding to believe that illegals are blamed for employability issues of legal aliens when there are so many advantages of being native and legal -- mobility being one of them. If you don't like your job, you can just quit and go to the next one; if an illegal doesn't like his job, I would imagine that quitting opens up a can of worms. Illegal aliens do not take jobs from Americans who want to work; they take jobs from Americans who either don't want to work -- or simply cannot fill a given position because of sloth or stupidity. Either way, Americans don't lose.



U.S. taxpayers are forced to support illegal aliens minimally; the illegal aliens are also forced to pay taxes that they will probably never receive any benefit from personally.



I don't know what line of work you're in but I'm pretty confident that your career prospects are in no way affected by illegal aliens -- especially if you're a holder of two degrees. If anyone's impacted by illegal labor, it's probably minimum wage employees with limited mobility, but not a degree holder, let alone a two-degree applicant. It is definitely possible, though, that you're getting squeezed in a tight global job market -- that I could see. But that threat's from outside, not from within. As I told you, be prepared to compete for your job. Maybe learn a second language and move to a different part of the world. I mean, that's what most of our ancestors did when coming to this country. Now it's our turn, I reckon. Are we really so arrogant as to believe all opportunities should just fall right into our laps?



Fine, then they'll compete against you from wherever they live. Why do you think factories close here and move to China or Vietnam - because American entrepreneurs want to try authentic Ramen and Pho? They concluded that American workers are over-priced and aren't productive enough. See, you may not think you're competing against Chinese workers, but Chinese workers are competing against you. You may not think your produce farmers are competing against Brazilian farmers, but Brazilian farmers are competing against American farmers.

We ought not to support illegal immigration, I agree; but we ought to make immigration even easier than it is now. Anyone who wants to come here and make contributions and can support themselves, should come. Shutting foreigners out is a stupid idea proposed by people who just don't know what they're doing or talking about. New people means new labor, and it also means new consumers and new markets. It's new energy coming into an economy.

Thankfully, I don't have to worry about being replaced by an illegal alien. Nor am I concerned about foreign competition. Fortunately, some careers simply cannot be outsourced. I'll leave it at that.

We currently welcome more legal immigrants than all other countries combined. How much more generous can we be? However, I do agree that certain changes should be made in our legal immigration process. For one, we should drastically reduce family sponsorship. We don't need immigrants who will not be contributing members of society. Far too many people are here simply because they have a relative. But, that's a discussion for the legal immigration forum.

Other than that, I totally disagree. So, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. I'm not going to change your mind, and you're not going to change mine. So, what's the point?
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Old 03-09-2012, 05:31 PM
 
14,307 posts, read 11,155,041 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
Thankfully, I don't have to worry about being replaced by an illegal alien. Nor am I concerned about foreign competition. Fortunately, some careers simply cannot be outsourced. I'll leave it at that.

We currently welcome more legal immigrants than all other countries combined. How much more generous can we be? However, I do agree that certain changes should be made in our legal immigration process. For one, we should drastically reduce family sponsorship. We don't need immigrants who will not be contributing members of society. Far too many people are here simply because they have a relative. But, that's a discussion for the legal immigration forum.

Other than that, I totally disagree. So, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. I'm not going to change your mind, and you're not going to change mine. So, what's the point?
If I had to pick the lesser of two evils I would pick outsourcing over millions of illegal aliens taking American jobs. At least with outsourcing we wouldn't have to pay these foreign worker's social costs as we do with illegals coming here and the resources they are draining from our country. Either way both of these things are hurting the American worker's job prospects.

Why in the world would anyone suggest that Americans leave their own country so that they don't have to compete with illegal aliens? My God! Whose country is this anyway? I find it hard to believe that there are citizens in this country that actually feel this way. Does "olecapt" have a twin brother? It sure seems that way.
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Old 03-09-2012, 05:40 PM
 
4,749 posts, read 3,466,971 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chicagonut View Post
Isn't it truly disgusting when the claim is made that Americans aren't doing enough to keep their jobs so they are supposedly too stupid or lazy to compete with an illegal alien? I could just blow a cork when I hear that one. The truth is that it is all about the bottom line profit with these greedy employers. Illegals work cheaper and that is the only reason they hire them not because Americans are incapable of doing a good job. I swear these supporters of illegal aiiens can come up with the most rididulous excuses and lies for advocating for their presence here. Note, how they are even trying to justify the employers breaking the law by hiring illegals and that it is ok just as long as they make more money? Lord, I hope these kinds of people aren't U.S. citizens with attitudes like that.
There is no way that illegal aliens are taking away jobs from real Americans who want those jobs. There is no freaking way that can happen, not over the long-term, which is what we're talking about here.

And here's why I say that: because while it's possible for employers to hire on just price alone, the price is at the floor only when we're talking about jobs that any idiot can do. The reason why the video store pays minimum wage is because there is an over-supply of people who can use a scanner (or who can be trained to use a scanner) to check in and check out videos and restock them, and ring people up. Same with fast food employees - an over supply of people who can mop the floors, change out the vegetable oil, and run the drive through. Americans don't want those jobs -- they just don't. How many Americans do you know -- seriously here -- who scan the classifieds and look for minimum wage work for anything other than short-term employment? Didn't think so. People would rather take welfare benefits and get free medical care here, which they're eligible to do and illegals are not. Illegal aliens who don't speak much English but can communicate just well enough to understand simple orders and ask simple questions? They get those jobs, and their jobs get easier as they work around others who take similar jobs and end up working in the same place. Over time, the problem for everyone is that the business becomes dependent on illegal labor -- not because they take jobs that Americans don't want, but because the illegals simply do them and do them as well as they can. And then they might get raided, leaving the employer vulnerable.

But illegals don't take jobs from ordinary Americans. That's just malarkey. It's an absurd argument that is not based in reality. And you know it. Anyone with any business sense knows it.
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Old 03-09-2012, 05:51 PM
 
4,749 posts, read 3,466,971 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
We currently welcome more legal immigrants than all other countries combined. How much more generous can we be? However, I do agree that certain changes should be made in our legal immigration process. For one, we should drastically reduce family sponsorship. We don't need immigrants who will not be contributing members of society. Far too many people are here simply because they have a relative.
I thought that might be your bottom line. Not just a distaste for illegals, but a general resistance to immigration on the whole.

Yeah, well, whatever. If we keep them out, then that's fine, but you can't stop economics, and American companies are definitely interested in foreign workers, whether you like it or not. If they don't bring workers here, then they'll just move their base of operations there. It might even be more advantageous since they can build up their working class to the point where they would not only be a cheap source of labor, but one day, a strong economy full of middle class consumers -- something that this country seems to have forgotten about long ago in its understanding of how capitalism actually works in the real world (as opposed to how people *think* capitalism works by watching stupid right wing meat-head sound bytes).
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Old 03-09-2012, 05:56 PM
 
4,749 posts, read 3,466,971 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chicagonut View Post
Either way both of these things are hurting the American worker's job prospects.
What's hurting the American economy are factors that are generally not very well understood by the average person apparently. Things like natural resource consumption; a dysfunctional system of government that is increasingly interfering with the economy, by either doing nothing at all or too many of the wrong things at the wrong times; and policies that encourage the pooling and hoarding of wealth among those who have high incomes and wealth, and provide increasingly fewer investments in the quality education and training of people. But I would also agree with conservatives: individuals are bringing some of this pain on themselves, too. Spending money they don't have. Holding out for jobs they think they deserve but have nothing in the way of education or quality of performance to justify their desired status.
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Old 03-09-2012, 05:59 PM
 
20,611 posts, read 12,293,735 times
Reputation: 5895
Quote:
Originally Posted by chickenfriedbananas View Post
I thought that might be your bottom line. Not just a distaste for illegals, but a general resistance to immigration on the whole.

Yeah, well, whatever. If we keep them out, then that's fine, but you can't stop economics, and American companies are definitely interested in foreign workers, whether you like it or not. If they don't bring workers here, then they'll just move their base of operations there. It might even be more advantageous since they can build up their working class to the point where they would not only be a cheap source of labor, but one day, a strong economy full of middle class consumers -- something that this country seems to have forgotten about long ago in its understanding of how capitalism actually works in the real world (as opposed to how people *think* capitalism works by watching stupid right wing meat-head sound bytes).
There are lots of Americans who would work those jobs but till the employers are punished the greedy SOB's will continue to hire illegal aliens cause they don't dare stand up to being hurt. Worse yet are the liberal do-gooders who have to feel superior to other Americans.

Time to make it PC to be an English speaking American again. If it upsets some Hispanics, tough. The door is open and they can move to one of many Spanish speaking countries.

You're right about one thing: it's time to really show down even legal immigration for a while till we got our own house in shape.
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Old 03-10-2012, 12:00 AM
 
4,749 posts, read 3,466,971 times
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Originally Posted by Packard fan View Post
There are lots of Americans who would work those jobs but till the employers are punished the greedy SOB's will continue to hire illegal aliens cause they don't dare stand up to being hurt. Worse yet are the liberal do-gooders who have to feel superior to other Americans.
You're living in a dream world. There are plenty of jobs that illegals do that aren't even hard labor; Americans won't do those jobs either. Not because they're grueling, but because Americans turn their nose up at the pay and low prestige of the job. They'd rather take welfare and get health benefits. Illegals fill the void, and they probably do about as good a job if they can speak even passable English. Moreover, they don't call in sick or take days off; they show up to work. Which employee would you want: the college kid who gets hungover and expects to have a "better" job within a few months, or someone who walked across a desert just to get a minimum wage job? Get real.
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Old 03-10-2012, 12:44 AM
 
Location: Too far from home.
8,743 posts, read 5,553,425 times
Reputation: 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
I hope you realize only 3% of illegals are picking crops. In fact, the list of jobs "Americans won't do" continues to grow as greedy employers enjoy profiting from cheap labor. Unless you are a professional, your job may ultimately join that list. Even some professionals aren't safe. If you wake up one day and discover YOU have been replaced by an illegal who is willing to work for less, perhaps you'll change your tune. Sadly, this is the fate suffered by many citizens, and is a major factor for the increasing decline of our middle class; that, along with outsourcing to China and India, and in-sourcing through work visas. While most illegals are uneducated and low skilled, many hold professional jobs making very good salaries.

Furthermore, the corporate elite don't care about you or any other U.S. citizen. They'll do anything to make a buck, even if it means replacing millions of qualified citizens. But, you are certainly entitled to remain complacent.


U.S. has as many as 12 million illegal immigrants, report says | The San Diego Union-Tribune

And, this was 6 years ago. Who knows how many are employed in such positions now. Ten percent or more of an estimated 8 million employed illegals. You do the math.
At least there were 5 companies that follow the law.
Quote:
...............five job offers in the last two months, only to have them revoked because of his immigration status
I wonder if he has a lawyer suing the 5 companies filing cases for discrimination. He was discriminated against because he was an illegal??
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Old 03-10-2012, 01:25 AM
 
Location: Too far from home.
8,743 posts, read 5,553,425 times
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Originally Posted by chickenfriedbananas View Post
People would rather take welfare benefits and get free medical care here, which they're eligible to do and illegals are not.
And illegals aren't getting food stamps and financial aid and free medical for their anchor babies? Oh, right, those anchor babis are US citizens and can't support themselves so the government does it. If those "US citizen" babies are "entitled" to government assistance, shouldn't every baby born to a US citizen be entitled to the same?


Illegal Immigrants Cost U.S. $100 Billion per Year, Conservative Group Says About Illegal Immigration - ABC News
Quote:
illegal aliens cost U.S. taxpayers more than $100 billion each year.
Do you really believe that illegals don't get free medical care? How would you explain this and who would be paying?
Quote:
Research reveals that 2.5 billion dollars a year is spent on Medicaid for people who have immigrated to the U.S. unlawfully
How Much Does Illegal Immigration Cost America? | Teen Politics Essay

What taxes do illegals pay? City tax? |Yet, they file income tax returns and get back more money that they paid into the system - which would be how much - nothing??? On top of getting government welfare for their anchor babies, they get to claim them for a Federal tax return.

Quote:
Many individuals who are not authorized to work in the United States, and thus not eligible to obtain a Social Security Number (SSN) for employment, earn income in the United States. The Internal Revenue Service (IRS) provides such individuals with an Individual Taxpayer Identification Number (ITIN) to facilitate their filing of tax returns. Although the law prohibits aliens residing without authorization in the United States from receiving most Federal public benefits, an increasing number of these individuals are filing tax returns claiming the Additional Child Tax Credit (ACTC), a refundable tax credit intended for working families. The payment of Federal funds through this tax benefit appears to provide an additional incentive for aliens to enter, reside, and work in the United States without authorization, which contradicts Federal law and policy to remove such incentives.
Quote:

WHAT TIGTA FOUND

Claims for the ACTC by ITIN filers have increased from $924 million in Processing Year 2005 (the calendar year in which the tax return was processed) to $4.2 billion in Processing Year 2010.
How much US untaxed money gets sent to Mexico?
Quote:
Mexicans living in the United States send home more than $8 billion annually.
What's Mexico's major import into the US?
Quote:
80% of cocaine and 50% of heroin in the U.S. is smuggled across the border by Mexican nationals
Those Mexican nationals would be illegals.

Economic costs of mass immigration (legal and illegal immigration) - CAIR - Colorado Alliance for Immigration Reform

Let's not forget about how much it costs to imprison illegals. They are all criminals, but it seems the government needs to protect the citizens from the more dangerous ones - the drug dealers, murderers, rapists. How many citizens die every year die at the hands or the action of an illegal? In 2006 it was 12 a day.

So, exactly what "contributions" do illegals actually make when they illegally stay in the US?

Last edited by softblueyz; 03-10-2012 at 01:43 AM..
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