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Old 03-25-2012, 11:00 AM
 
47,586 posts, read 35,330,208 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucidkitty View Post
Well when industries have to rely on guest worker programs to do their job that pretty much tells you that americans are not willing to do the jobs now isn't it? Because guest worker programs are federally mandated they are more regulated and force to pay correct wages. When you have to pay the same wages and need to look outside the country to get the employees then what does that tell you?
No one is saying there should not be a guest worker program. As you pointed out, there is a perfectly legal way for employers to bring in all the guest workers their little hearts desire, as we all know there are no caps on H2A visas.

There is no excuse to bring in illegals except that many employers don't want to pay legal wages or abide by the laws.
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Old 03-25-2012, 11:03 AM
Status: "Yodeling in DewDropInn's hotel" (set 11 days ago)
 
Location: hunt valley
6,235 posts, read 2,754,413 times
Reputation: 2870
Quote:
Originally Posted by malamute View Post
No one is saying there should not be a guest worker program. As you pointed out, there is a perfectly legal way for employers to bring in all the guest workers their little hearts desire, as we all know there are no caps on H2A visas.

There is no excuse to bring in illegals except that many employers don't want to pay legal wages or abide by the laws.
Which i will admit is a big reason for businesses that pay under the table for doing so. My issue is the fact that pushing them out is not suddenly going to cut unemployment, nor revitalize american industry is all.
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Old 03-25-2012, 11:04 AM
 
Location: California
2,477 posts, read 809,910 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucidkitty View Post
I don't get the point you are making there since the argument i am making is there are jobs americans don't want to fill. So thank you for pretty much affirming what i just told you . As for the tax credits, that can pretty much be applied to most americans, since the majority end up paying no taxes. But the bigger issue there is HOW many even file their tax returns? And i'm sorry that doesn't nullify any claims because it simply states they received back a little over 4 million dollars in credits, and doesn't say it's more then withheld. Lastly why don't you offer some proof that they don't pay enough in local taxes to cover their costs ?
I agree, there are jobs that won't be filled by Citizens, production can't keep up with consumption. Legal workers can be brought in, and are in many cases. The issue is workers that come illegally and blend in like legal workers by way of using forged work documents. They come un-invited, many as a "rite of passage" to simply make in 1 day what takes them to make back home in 1 week.

The tax credits can be applied to most Americans, who those credits are legally for as is citizens/legal residents right to claim, not illegal aliens working here illegally. Now you admit most illegals pay no taxes. How many illegals file tax forms? According to all reports out there between 6-8M do, which is half plus of the illegal population. You might try re-reading that link I gave you, they received back $4.2B (that's Billion, not Million) more than was withheld.

Why don't you provide some proof they pay enough local taxes to cover their costs? your the one claiming they do.

But since you have nothing but rhetoric, here: The National Research Council estimates indicated that the average immigrant without a high school education (illegal immigrants) imposes a net fiscal burden on public coffers of $89,000 during the course of his or her lifetime. The average immigrant with only a high school education creates a lifetime fiscal burden of $31,000.
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Old 03-25-2012, 11:11 AM
Status: "Yodeling in DewDropInn's hotel" (set 11 days ago)
 
Location: hunt valley
6,235 posts, read 2,754,413 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Liquid Reigns View Post
I agree, there are jobs that won't be filled by Citizens, production can't keep up with consumption. Legal workers can be brought in, and are in many cases. The issue is workers that come illegally and blend in like legal workers by way of using forged work documents. They come un-invited, many as a "rite of passage" to simply make in 1 day what takes them to make back home in 1 week.

The tax credits can be applied to most Americans, who those credits are legally for as is citizens/legal residents right to claim, not illegal aliens working here illegally. Now you admit most illegals pay no taxes. How many illegals file tax forms? According to all reports out there between 6-8M do, which is half plus of the illegal population. You might try re-reading that link I gave you, they received back $4.2B (that's Billion, not Million) more than was withheld.

Why don't you provide some proof they pay enough local taxes to cover their costs? your the one claiming they do.

But since you have nothing but rhetoric, here: The National Research Council estimates indicated that the average immigrant without a high school education (illegal immigrants) imposes a net fiscal burden on public coffers of $89,000 during the course of his or her lifetime. The average immigrant with only a high school education creates a lifetime fiscal burden of $31,000.
You are the one who first made the claim that they didn't, so the burden of proof is on you actually . And that link you gave said nothing about the fact they received more than withheld. So perhaps YOU should go back and read it . And how about a link not a statement from you saying the nrc said this?
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Old 03-25-2012, 11:12 AM
 
Location: California
2,477 posts, read 809,910 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucidkitty View Post
Which i will admit is a big reason for businesses that pay under the table for doing so. My issue is the fact that pushing them out is not suddenly going to cut unemployment, nor revitalize american industry is all.
Nobody here expects that. What it will do is eventually equal things out. I compete against many who hire illegal workers, therefor I have to cut my costs to compete or close up. I would rather have those using illegal workers close up or be forced to come into compliance with the same laws I fall under making for fair competition.
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Old 03-25-2012, 11:14 AM
Status: "Yodeling in DewDropInn's hotel" (set 11 days ago)
 
Location: hunt valley
6,235 posts, read 2,754,413 times
Reputation: 2870
Quote:
Originally Posted by Liquid Reigns View Post
Nobody here expects that. What it will do is eventually equal things out. I compete against many who hire illegal workers, therefor I have to cut my costs to compete or close up. I would rather have those using illegal workers close up or be forced to come into compliance with the same laws I fall under making for fair competition.
You would be amazed actually, because a lot of people on this board do believe that.
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Old 03-25-2012, 11:20 AM
 
47,586 posts, read 35,330,208 times
Reputation: 21573
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucidkitty View Post
Which i will admit is a big reason for businesses that pay under the table for doing so. My issue is the fact that pushing them out is not suddenly going to cut unemployment, nor revitalize american industry is all.
Oh yes it will.

Many honest businesses have shut down because those that hire much cheaper illegals can underbid them.

Where I live, it's almost impossible to find an honest construction business now, or landscaping business.

That's exactly why so many of these businesses now insist that they MUST be allowed to hire illegals because they can't profit unless they do. They've run out all the honest businesses who would pay legal wages and give Americans a fair chance for jobs.
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Old 03-25-2012, 11:25 AM
Status: "Yodeling in DewDropInn's hotel" (set 11 days ago)
 
Location: hunt valley
6,235 posts, read 2,754,413 times
Reputation: 2870
Quote:
Originally Posted by malamute View Post
Oh yes it will.

Many honest businesses have shut down because those that hire much cheaper illegals can underbid them.

Where I live, it's almost impossible to find an honest construction business now, or landscaping business.

That's exactly why so many of these businesses now insist that they MUST be allowed to hire illegals because they can't profit unless they do. They've run out all the honest businesses who would pay legal wages and give Americans a fair chance for jobs.
I here about all this yet i never see any actual proof businesses are being shut down in mass due to illegal immigrants .
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Old 03-25-2012, 11:29 AM
 
47,586 posts, read 35,330,208 times
Reputation: 21573
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Originally Posted by Lucidkitty View Post
I here about all this yet i never see any actual proof businesses are being shut down in mass due to illegal immigrants .
And how do you think over 30 million illegals earn a living here? Yes, they have displaced American workers because not all 30 million are living off only welfare handouts.

And guess what -- if many millions of impoverished Americans went into Mexico, guess what the Mexicans would do about them? Yes, Mexicans have a very big double standard, they believe in borders and immigration laws for their own country.

Mexico would simply not allow millions of impoverished helpless Americans to ignore it's immigration laws and relocate into Mexico.
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Old 03-25-2012, 11:31 AM
 
9,141 posts, read 3,067,884 times
Reputation: 2051
Quote:
Originally Posted by malamute View Post
Oh yes it will.

Many honest businesses have shut down because those that hire much cheaper illegals can underbid them.

Where I live, it's almost impossible to find an honest construction business now, or landscaping business.

That's exactly why so many of these businesses now insist that they MUST be allowed to hire illegals because they can't profit unless they do. They've run out all the honest businesses who would pay legal wages and give Americans a fair chance for jobs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucidkitty View Post
I here about all this yet i never see any actual proof businesses are being shut down in mass due to illegal immigrants .
malamute and I live near Mexico. I've talked with employers who like their illegal alien workers. Those crooks think Americans are lazy and worthless. Some of us are useless, not all. I make less money per hour now than back in 1992 here in Arizona after counting inflation. I'm in a trade.
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