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...The issue with Bessi is he went through a TOPD checkpoint in 2002, it was later when he went through an immigration checkpoint, where in TOPD pulled him over after he left it for impeding. Bessi is a poor example, as is your linked case. We all already know that BP is there to determine status, however local PD is there to check for licensing, insurance, drunk driving, etc. If BP happens to be with local PD at a PD checkpoint, then BP doesn't have to answer any questions from a motorist unless BP has reason to assume jurisdiction.
Sounds like the Border Patrol needs to team up with local police if they are to go to the questioning YOu perhaps want. For others, I'll provide the link to the 2002 detention of Terry Bressi: https://www.checkpointusa.org/roadbl...ate/stop1.html (be aware that it is written from his point of view). Relating to the 2002 incident (in which the operation did seize both illegal aliens and drugs by Bressi's observation) what is YOur opinion for what transpired?
Point being, do YOu want more or less of those types of events?...
For the Border Patrol solely on their own (every encounter I have had with the Border Patrol it has only been their agents present), do YOu want drug-related questioning to occur first, even if there is not individual Probable Cause? Should the primary duties of the Border Patrol be expanded to include drug searches irrespective of citizenship? I am just wanting to hear YOur stance directly of what authority they constitutionally should have.
Sounds like the Border Patrol needs to team up with local police if they are to go to the questioning YOu perhaps want. For others, I'll provide the link to the 2002 detention of Terry Bressi: https://www.checkpointusa.org/roadbl...ate/stop1.html (be aware that it is written from his point of view). Relating to the 2002 incident (in which the operation did seize both illegal aliens and drugs by Bressi's observation) what is YOur opinion for what transpired?
Point being, do YOu want more or less of those types of events?...
For the Border Patrol solely on their own (every encounter I have had with the Border Patrol it has only been their agents present), do YOu want drug-related questioning to occur first, even if there is not individual Probable Cause? Should the primary duties of the Border Patrol be expanded to include drug searches irrespective of citizenship? I am just wanting to hear YOur stance directly of what authority they constitutionally should have.
You keep progressing the argument to points that have no merit of the OP.
The questioning I want?
I already gave my opinion of Bressi and his 2002 event, a local PD checkpoint where BP was also present. What part in particular are you wanting to discuss about Bressi? The fact that BP was present at a TOPD sobriety & license checkpoint? My overall opinion of Bessi is he is an idiot. He is attempting to use Federal Law against State Law, as I already said, check your state laws (stop and identify laws) in regards to being asked for identification from a LEO at a checkpoint. Arizona explicitly imposes an obligation to provide identifying information, i.e. DL, etc. Bressi even states he was was cited with two class 2 misdemeanors - each of which carries a maximum jail time of 4 months and a maximum monetary fine of $750.00:
ARS 28-1595B - Operator fails/refuses to exhibit drivers' license
ARS 28-622A - Failure to obey officer while directing traffic
Nothing at all to do with BP or your OP since this was a local LEO issue.
My stance directly?
BP agents can act and arrest, even according to your linked case, as a law enforcement officer if they have reasonable suspicion of law violations.
Quote:
....an agent at an immigration stop may investigate non-immigration matters beyond the permissible length of the immigration stop if and only if the initial, lawful stop creates reasonable suspicion warranting further investigation.
This falls into the line of questioning as to when status was determined. You don't seem to fully understand the case you have linked to. I would suggest you actually discuss this with a lawyer instead of attempting to armchair something you seem to lack understanding in. Maybe a lawyer can better explain to you how and what authority BP has to include what rights you have and when they become infringed upon. So far, you haven't shown anything that helps your cause.
Your claims of Vehicle stop[ed] by the Border Patrol can only be done under a suspicion that at least one illegal alien is within the vehicle - and not for other moving or suspected vehicle violations. (BP can pull you over for speeding if they witness you violating a speed law, etc. They are Law Enforcement Officers afterall)
U.S. citizens are not required by law to prove their citizenship - but lying to a Federal officer is a crime... are turning out to be proven incorrect. Obviously you are required to prove you are a citizen or legally within the USA if stopped within the boundary area by a Federal Agent (BP Officer). If stopped by a Local LEO, State law may require providing proof of identity, ie, DL, Passport, etc.
Last edited by Liquid Reigns; 03-28-2012 at 09:22 PM..
You keep progressing the argument to points that have no merit of the OP...
Well, I made the OP...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Liquid Reigns
...The questioning I want?
I already gave my opinion of Bressi and his 2002 event, a local PD checkpoint where BP was also present. What part in particular are you wanting to discuss about Bressi? The fact that BP was present at a TOPD sobriety & license checkpoint? My overall opinion of Bessi is he is an idiot. He is attempting to use Federal Law against State Law, as I already said, check your state laws (stop and identify laws) in regards to being asked for identification from a LEO at a checkpoint. Arizona explicitly imposes an obligation to provide identifying information, i.e. DL, etc. Bressi even states he was was cited with two class 2 misdemeanors - each of which carries a maximum jail time of 4 months and a maximum monetary fine of $750.00:
ARS 28-1595B - Operator fails/refuses to exhibit drivers' license
ARS 28-622A - Failure to obey officer while directing traffic
Nothing at all to do with BP or your OP since this was a local LEO issue...
And despite all that he won the case...
Is he also going to win his civil rights case?...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Liquid Reigns
...My stance directly?
BP agents can act and arrest, even according to your linked case, as a law enforcement officer if they have reasonable suspicion of law violations. This falls into the line of questioning as to when status was determined. You don't seem to fully understand the case you have linked to. I would suggest you actually discuss this with a lawyer instead of attempting to armchair something you seem to lack understanding in. Maybe a lawyer can better explain to you how and what authority BP has to include what rights you have and when they become infringed upon. So far, you haven't shown anything that helps your cause.
Your claims of Vehicle stop[ed] by the Border Patrol can only be done under a suspicion that at least one illegal alien is within the vehicle - and not for other moving or suspected vehicle violations. (BP can pull you over for speeding if they witness you violating a speed law, etc. They are Law Enforcement Officers afterall)...
I see Forest Service vehicles around here that are marked "Law Enforcement", but we aren't talking about them stopping moving violations unless someone is riding a deer...
How does the Border Patrol write up that speeding violation, or do they have to call the local police? And how did they measure it to be sure YOu were speeding? Do the agents have to show up in court if I contest the ticket?
Matter of fact, why would the Border Patrol even involve any local agencies if they are able to do all of the required duties by themselves?...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Liquid Reigns
...U.S. citizens are not required by law to prove their citizenship - but lying to a Federal officer is a crime... are turning out to be proven incorrect. Obviously you are required to prove you are a citizen or legally within the USA if stopped within the boundary area by a Federal Agent (BP Officer). If stopped by a Local LEO, State law may require providing proof of identity, ie, DL, Passport, etc.
I'm gonna need a cite for the Border Patrol (or other "Federal Officers" like Forest Service and Postal Inspectors) claim. And to be told how I am going to prove my U.S. citizenship, when only my cardstock Voter's ID does that, but doesn't have my photograph or fingerprint. Among my three Border Patrol vehicle stops, only the middle occasion had any documentation presented at all.
I don't usually carry my passport, and my New Mexico driver's license doesn't prove legal residency. Don't get mixed up with the requirement of Legal Residents to present documents only to immigration officers. YOu guys are trying to represent a United States where officers have limitless authority, and can shoot at anyone running away.
After his lawsuit was dismissed by a lower court, Bressi sought review by the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals. The appeals court held that Bressi’s claims had merit, in part. They remanded his case back to district court for rehearing.. Here is the better explanation, from Bressi and his lawyer: http://www.freedomsphoenix.com/Artic...mands-case.htm
Quote:
Nearly 2 years after the briefs were filed, and almost 9 months after oral argument, the Ninth Circuit three-judge panel has decided Bressi v. Ford. This is a published opinion, which means it will be binding lawon every tribal jurisdiction in Alaska, Arizona, California, Hawaii, Idaho, Montana, Nevada, Oregon, and Washington. We didn't win on every claim, but we won on the most important part - that if a tribal police department wants to run a "sobriety checkpoint" on a state highway right-of-way, thereby expecting non-Indians to travel on it, the tribal police must first ask if the driver is Indian or non-Indian, and then non-Indians who are not obviously impaired must immediately be allowed to go on their way. What the tribal police did with Terry was unconstitutional, and now it's a senior jurist who literally wrote the book on Indian Law who agrees with us. Since both sides lost something, both sides may choose to appeal / cross-appeal. But as it stands now, we have good law.
Note this is a TOPD issue.
Quote:
Originally Posted by IBMMuseum
I see Forest Service vehicles around here that are marked "Law Enforcement", but we aren't talking about them stopping moving violations unless someone is riding a deer...
How does the Border Patrol write up that speeding violation, or do they have to call the local police? And how did they measure it to be sure YOu were speeding? Do the agents have to show up in court if I contest the ticket?
In most instances they will call local PD, whether they need to or not is the question. Simply following the speeder they can accurately get your speed. If the agent doesn't show up in court, your ticket is dropped, atleast here in CA.
Quote:
Originally Posted by IBMMuseum
Matter of fact, why would the Border Patrol even involve any local agencies if they are able to do all of the required duties by themselves?...
Its a jurisdiction issue(?), they can cite the person while local PD/HP are present to verify citation. The issue is how the State recognizes a BP officer, i.e. as a peace officer, etc. - they can stop and detain someone for a violation of State law. 287 comes to mind (Yuma County, AZ Border Patrol agents are deputized to write local-jurisdiction citations).
Quote:
Originally Posted by IBMMuseum
I'm gonna need a cite for the Border Patrol (or other "Federal Officers" like Forest Service and Postal Inspectors) claim. And to be told how I am going to prove my U.S. citizenship, when only my cardstock Voter's ID does that, but doesn't have my photograph or fingerprint. Among my three Border Patrol vehicle stops, only the middle occasion had any documentation presented at all.
Postal Service? They are not Law enforcement. I have already given you the BP link for rules and regs, I have also given you state "stop and identify" laws for Local PD. Your issue now becomes that of Bressi's, idiocy.
Quote:
Originally Posted by IBMMuseum
I don't usually carry my passport, and my New Mexico driver's license doesn't prove legal residency. Don't get mixed up with the requirement of Legal Residents to present documents only to immigration officers. YOu guys are trying to represent a United States where officers have limitless authority, and can shoot at anyone running away.
For NM I would suggest you find out what your stop and identify laws require for LEO's, as for BP checkpoints, I would suggest asking BP what documents they will require in a checkpoint, if any at all. You are basing your inane argument on the fact that you are a citizens that should not be hassled by BP, yet if they determine that they have reasonable suspicion you are lying, they can further investigate you/detain you, until they are satisfied you are a Citizen.
I suggest you discuss your issues with a lawyer in your area to understand what can be asked of you at a BP checkpoint.
Last edited by Liquid Reigns; 03-29-2012 at 09:58 AM..
Freedom? Driving a motor vehicle is a privilege not freedom, with this privilege there are certain requirements and issues that may arise, states have regulated this privilege.
Last edited by Liquid Reigns; 03-29-2012 at 09:31 AM..
Hmmm, why aren't they able to drop into the role of local law enforcement issues like their fellow Federal Officers of the Border Patrol?...
Point was, YOu said they weren't "Law Enforcement"...
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I would suggest you actually discuss this with a lawyer instead of attempting to armchair something you seem to lack understanding in. Maybe a lawyer can better explain to you how and what authority BP has to include what rights you have and when they become infringed upon. So far, you haven't shown anything that helps your cause.
