I am writing this with tears of anger in my eyes! (Canadian, representation)

[raymond2]

Originally Posted by spm62

you mean bailouts that the democrats love so much. Thanks for making my point. How many trillions did obama give in bailiouts? Once again, you defeat your own argument

Lol, And you only attack middle class people who get SS, Medicare and unemployment benefits?

Did you read me excusing Obama?
He gave entitlements to the Rich along with giving in to the Repubs demands and even bringing Corporate failures into his administration.

It is you who is the Repub hypocrit that only attacked the "liberals" so I only referenced the wealthy entitlements that you left out!
Bailoute, Insider trading, along with illegal tax havens to hide their incomes is a small part of their sense of entitlements but you as a poor Repub dont mention those do you?

Originally Posted by spm62

Now this is hilarious! How many millions absolutely depend on the government for their basic needs? Once again, you have no clue what your talking about.

The wealthy corporations depend on government to negotiate trade deals in order for them to get access to the very low wage peasants overseas. Then the businesses use illegal immigrants to generate more profits.

Lol, you cry about illegals when they wouldnt be here if noone would hire them... congratulations.. they are here because ... as you said.... Americans are lazy and entitled so who else will do the work below minimum wages, not collect unemployment benefits, or get SS and Medicare???

Your hypocritical excuses validate why we have illegals!
If you are poor like you say.. accept the republican motto... its YOUR fault you are poor... so why is a poor repub like you blaming illegals and blaming Americans who support SS & Medicare instead of yourself for your problems?

Originally Posted by spm62

Thanks again for making my point. You admit that special interest own obama and all the democrats. They own the republicans too. Another failed campign promise

Lol, you cant understand my point?
Are all those special interests liberal as you kept pointing 100% of blame???

Many of the most powerful wealthy are conservatives seeking priviliges and entitlements so where is all your hypocritcal attacks against middleclass "entitlements" Those entitlements for the rich will continue because they can Buy them for pennies on the dollar for huge financial returns!

Originally Posted by spm62

Thanks again for making my point. Who is the government?
what would happen if the government stopped giving out these entitlements?

Then money the government collects for taxes will be used to wage more wars, go to rebuilding foreign governments or end up in politicians pockets with nothing going back to the middle class at all.
The Rich can still get their entitlements by socializing and wining & dining politicians!

Not too quick are you?

Originally Posted by spm62

Cost most of us less than we put in? What are you saying? People are using way more benefits than what they pay in. That is the problem! Years ago when ss first started, people did live as long as they do now. Not to mention the baby boom generation coming into retirement. The system is broken,. It is bankrupt,hello. What rock have you been under for the last 10 years? Do you even have a clue what is going on. Read once in awhile and try to obtain some knowledge. Incredible. You are a perfect example of people voting who don`t have a clue what is going on. Man, that is scary.

Then your diatribe against entitled middle class Americans justifies replacing them in the workforce with illegals and legal immigrants... lol.

If thats the case, We should open our borders and welcome all immigrants to replace so many lazy Americans who dont want to work ... as you accuse them of being!

Originally Posted by spm62

Go to a dictatorship led country. The people don`t have freedoms. The government controls their food, shelter,etc. Sound familiar? If you depend on someone or some entity for your basic needs, then you are a slave to them. They have control over your life. You can`t eat without them giving you food. They provide your shelter, your clothes, healthcare, etc. They can take it away at any time and then what would happen to you? Many people in this country are beholden to the government to take care of them. Many abuse the system. They don`t want to work. They would rather have the government take care of them. They have become slaves to the government and just like you, they don`t even realize it. They don`t even realize that the government has them in it`s control. It`s an amazing thing,really. The founding fathers warned specifically about this. The more control you give to them, the less freedoms you have.

Lol, our government doesnt take away freedoms with those programs.. do you even know the difference between 1st world countries with social benefits vs third world countries that offer much less?

Let me educate you:
People living in dictatorships dont have adequate food and shelter... they are starving compared to Americans and other modern countries with 1st world amenities!
Why are 3rd world people living under dictatorships running to America and Europe if they are provided for in those other countries?

And our forefathers had slaves.... cheap labor.... THEN we also had cheap foreign immigrant labor like using chinese who were denied citizenships to build the railroads so using cheap foreign labor was even more common back then!

200 years ago, Blacks, Women, Non-Europeans had few - 0 rights and our military was able to use gunboat diplomacy to "negotiate" favorable trade deals against weaker countries.

Our white male colonial forefathers had plenty of entitlements we don't have today.
You dont know history huh?

Originally Posted by spm62

[b] Yes, but the people don`t make a way of life over it. Generation after generation of the same families are held hostage to the government. The government has made them lazy and dependent. So they keep voting for the people who promise them free stuff and that keeps certain people in power. But again, people are totally ignorant of their predicament. They are totally fine with the government controlling them and giving them just enough to get by on. They still have their cell phones, microwaves,cars, 50" tv`s, game consoles,etc. But they are poor.

Lol, aren't Repubs like you accusing the poor of taking advantage of government with entitlements?
Only in free 1st world countries can you even accuse the citizens of taking advantage of government entitlements!

Show me all the slaves in 3rd world peasants accused of taking advantage of their governments because they get too much unemployment benefits, SS and Medicare!!!!!
You think 3rd world peasants come to America, Canada and Western Europe because our 1st world governments takes away people's freedoms by giving them too much... lol!

All government collects taxes and thats why 1st world countries provide their people with gov. insurance programs. 3rd world countries provide almost nothing to the poor for taxes they collect... thats why they have none to a small middle class because the poor cannot escape poverty when the wealthy control their wages (or no wages) with no unions or labor laws at all! Without government insurance programs, they must accept any job at any wage.. even if they dont get paid at all because they have nothing and are desperate.

Originally Posted by spm62

I don`t know about Asia`s human rights. But this isn`t about human rights. That`s what the government wants you to believe and I can certainly see they have you sucked in. This is about people abusing the system, breaking laws, and living off of other people.

You dont know much about Asia or anything else.
Our government has plenty of Conservative Republicans and Democrats helping the interests of the wealthy so your diatribe on only "liberals" offering Gov. "entitlement programs" to help the middle class and poor as the major problems in this country is ridiculous.

Once again, 3rd world people run away from their countries to our 1st world countries.... we dont run away to their countries.

Japan offers government social packages and have unions for their people.
The Philippines offer very little to it's people in terms of government aid but they have a strong & influential catholic church. Which country is 1st world and which is 3rd world?
You think Japanese people with so much government protection programs are poor & lazy and the Philippines with virtually no government assistance are better off?

Look at the modern Asian countries with the highest standard of living and employment and those are the ones with plenty of government insurance programs for their people.. same when comparing Western Europeans vs Eastern Europeans .
Western Europeans with more government benefits than we do are also signifigantly better off than Eastern Europeans with much less benefits from their governments.

1st world countries in East AND West have far more freedoms along with more government benefits than those in 3rd world countries. FACT is that Countries with governments that provide LESS for their people have LESS freedom. Countries with governments that provide MORE for their people tend to have MORE freedoms. Only a blind man can't see that.

Originally Posted by spm62

You mean like America was in the the first 200 years of her existence? When people risked life and limb to come here because it was so bad. No, people took care of their own. People and families took care of each other. The government wasn`t created to run people`s lives. It wasn`t created to hand out ss checks, food stamps, housing, and healthcare. Once again you have shown that you have been brainwashed into the entitlement bs and have no idea about history.
You want to talk about poor peasants. Go to a country where the government controls just about everything. You are welcome to move there.

LOL, Do you even know how the world worked 200 years ago?

In the heyday of colonialism, powerful western governments thru use of gunboat diplomacy created enormous economic opportunities for western businessmen ... lol... businessmen didn't get rich by themselves back then either. Governments & military gave them foreign slaves and the ability to exploit weaker nations to create the 1st world conditions you enjoy today.

[raymond2]

Originally Posted by spm62

You mean like America was in the the first 200 years of her existence? When people risked life and limb to come here because it was so bad. No, people took care of their own. People and families took care of each other. The government wasn`t created to run people`s lives. It wasn`t created to hand out ss checks, food stamps, housing, and healthcare. Once again you have shown that you have been brainwashed into the entitlement bs and have no idea about history.
You want to talk about poor peasants. Go to a country where the government controls just about everything. You are welcome to move there.

LOL, Do you even know how the world worked 200 years ago?

In the heyday of colonialism, powerful western governments thru use of gunboat diplomacy created enormous economic opportunities for western businessmen ... lol... businessmen didn't get rich by themselves back then either. Governments & military gave them foreign slaves and the ability to exploit weaker nations to create the 1st world conditions you enjoy today.

Blacks and women did not have equal rights and bringing in cheap foreign labor was quite common back then too.

Even American child labor was legal... LOL... how wonderful it was back then with no minimum wages & government labor protection laws!

Originally Posted by spm62

Who is the government and where does it get money?
When you rely on other people`s money to take care of you, then those people have a right to know that you deserve the money. Just like working for an employer. They have a right to drug test you and do a criminal background check. When you apply for a loan to a bank, they have the same right to check your history. Why? Because it is their MONEY. IT is their RISK. I suppose you would just loan out money to whoever asked for it without doing any kind of check. So you expect taxpayers to just freely give their money with no accountablility! Again, it`s called freedoms! You can`t have it both ways which is what a lot people like you want. You want to live off of other people`s money but you don`t want to be accountable for it. If you don`t want to be accountable to other people, then work and make your own money. Then you don`t have to worry about it.

It is all our money... Americans pay taxes either on income or buying products... all monies paying income tax AND taxes on food, cars, property taxes, etc.... monies come from everyone to keep this economy going.... yeah , even illegals spending money earned here goes back into our economy.

You think only the wealthy provides revenue?
Guess where the money from wealthy corporations comes from?
The buying and spending power of the middle class are how wealthy corporations earn their money... so money should circulate from middle class - to rich - middle class.. but now it mostly stays with the wealthy corps who circulate that money amongst overseas low wage peasants and not the middle class anymore because Repubs dont want minimum wages at all.

That's how you create a 3rd world country by allowing the wealthy & powerful to exploit the poor and weak which eliminates the existence of a middle class.

Ferrari can never earn as much money selling to the rich that Ford or Toyota earns selling to the middle class.
Mcdonalds earns billions more than any 5 star restaurant selling to the middle class instead of the 1%.

1st world countries have government programs that aids the upward mobility of the poor to create and maintain a healthy middle class.
3rd world countries have governments that don't provide anything to their people and if they do... they offer bare minimum aid that require government intrusion and control over their lives.

1st world countries offers much more aid with less government intrusions into private lives because 1st world governments operates on trust and on the principles that it's people are innocent unless PROVEN guilty. 3rd world countries operate on the principle that their own people are always guilty and exist to be exploited.

Ofc, you Repubs assume that most middle class and poor americans receiving Unemployment or any benefits to survive are just lazy & entitled but that the wealthy need all the special government assistance they can pay for... lol.

You think this country's problems come from Government spending on the middle class and the poor when this country is run by people who are wealthy. Your logic is that the wealthy people who control everything and make all the rules aren't responsible and they are the ones who need help in a depressed economy is ludicrous.

Originally Posted by spm62

It is the working people in this country who are being taken advantage of. They are the ones that keep the country working. The people who refuse to work or take from the pool without putting anything in are the ones who are pulling the country down.
Your post is filled with so much misinformation and ignorance that it is pointless to even debate with you. Not to mention that you defeat your purpose in so many of the points you make. I would suggest that you do some independant reading and try using some free thought and open your mind. You are obviously ignorant of the issues and have no clue. Best of luck to you.

LOL, illegals are working people or don't you know?

Many people collecting SS and Medicare are also the working people who built this country... they are getting it after decades of employment.
In fact many of those unemployed in this depression are 50 - 60 years old and worked since they were teenagers.

You have no idea what you are talking about.

Since you think the Americans who are unemployed are simply lazy and feel entitled, then the illegals must be taking away jobs from noone. Then stop crying about illegals!

Someone like you, who thinks so lowly of Americans expecting a decent salary should be grateful lazy unemployed Americans are being replaced with illegal workers taking jobs Americans wont... who get below minimum wages, no SS, no Medicare and no unemployment benefits. That's the ideal American workforce for you Repubs.

Since you are poor and love Repub ideology, .. accept the Repubs reason that you are poor... it's your fault for being lazy. Btw, I hope you're not taking advantage of your employer by forcing him to pay you minimum wage or more... lol.

Btw, I previously collected unemployment for about a year but since I earned an above average salary most of my life and have a new job with an above average salary again, I paid and still pay far more taxes to this country than you have or ever will... even minus the unemployment I collected... so your value as a taxpayer is far less than mine.

[mash123]

Originally Posted by freespiritbutterfly

Very good argument. I agree. But I am not sure if kicking out illegal immigrants that have been here for years and came here as children is the way to go about this problem. Sure they are taking your jobs. But lets just put things into perspective . . . imagine you were removed from your country and deported to your home country (Mexico) just because your parents had moved to the USA when you were 3. You are 18 now, your mother has passed away, and you can't speak any Spanish, you don't even know your other family that live there. Sure it's not your problem or your country's problem. But I'm sure theres something more morally right that can be done than kicking them out to rot in a country that isn't the home that they know, turning their backs because it's not "their" problem. Like, for example, setting up a programme in Mexico that encourages illegal youth immigrants to work for the US and Mexican government to strengthen govermental relations. Theres a whole lot the government could do like that which will benefit us in the long run. My problem is that many people are angry at the immigrants that have been here since they were very young, when they were only minors when they came to the USA. So how can they be held responsible?

I really can understand the pain of this person.
Also, I can understand the pain of a 20 years old guy who used to have a lot of money, fancy cars, his own loft in Manhattan, dates with expensive model-looking girls, and now the police arrested his father for being a con-artist and confiscated all of the money. It's painful after all of this to start looking for a job in Burger King, to ride the bus and to date regular girls. And it's not the fault of the guy. But you can not leave the illegal money to him, right? He does not suppose to enjoy the fruits of the crime.

[freespiritbutterfly]

Originally Posted by mash123

I really can understand the pain of this person.
Also, I can understand the pain of a 20 years old guy who used to have a lot of money, fancy cars, his own loft in Manhattan, dates with expensive model-looking girls, and now the police arrested his father for being a con-artist and confiscated all of the money. It's painful after all of this to start looking for a job in Burger King, to ride the bus and to date regular girls. And it's not the fault of the guy. But you can not leave the illegal money to him, right? He does not suppose to enjoy the fruits of the crime.

Sounds a bit like Two Broke Girls. But, you do hold up a very excellent analogy. Firstly, I question whether this would be reality? Likely, he has his own trust fund and has some secret wad of cash somewhere. I'm guessing a con - artist father would have somehow organised some secret monetary protection for his children. But yes, I can understand that pain of that man aswell. I can also understand the fustration of legal Americans who can't find work. However, I think that taking away somone from their home is slightly different from taking away money from someone, but that's just my personal opinion. When I think about it, I think that illegal immigrant children like this need to be analysed on a case - by - case basis.

Say, for example, a person came to the United States illegally as a three year old. They are now 15 and are still living with their alive Mexican family. They could be returned to Mexico if the children can speak intermediate - fluent Spanish?

Say, for example, a person came to the United States illegally as a three year old. They are 20 years old, don't speak Spanish and both of their parents are dead. I believe it would be cruel to deport such a person, don't you?

[ListenToYourHeart]

This whole "taking our jobs" thing is not really a good argument against the 16-30 year olds who are allowed to stay.

If they are taking your job, they are more qualified and in turn, what do they do with the money. Some of it goes to tax pool and most the rest got put back into the economy generating more jobs. It's not like they take the job, earn the money, and hid it under their bed.

[mash123]

Originally Posted by freespiritbutterfly

Sounds a bit like Two Broke Girls. But, you do hold up a very excellent analogy. Firstly, I question whether this would be reality? Likely, he has his own trust fund and has some secret wad of cash somewhere. I'm guessing a con - artist father would have somehow organised some secret monetary protection for his children. But yes, I can understand that pain of that man aswell. I can also understand the fustration of legal Americans who can't find work. However, I think that taking away somone from their home is slightly different from taking away money from someone, but that's just my personal opinion. When I think about it, I think that illegal immigrant children like this need to be analysed on a case - by - case basis.

There is no need to case by case analysis. The child doesn't suppose to enjoy the fruit of the crime. It's that simple.

Originally Posted by freespiritbutterfly

Say, for example, a person came to the United States illegally as a three year old. They are now 15 and are still living with their alive Mexican family. They could be returned to Mexico if the children can speak intermediate - fluent Spanish?

He will be returned with his family. If his family has a path to a citizenship, then he will wait in the US for legal documents trough his parents.

Originally Posted by freespiritbutterfly

Say, for example, a person came to the United States illegally as a three year old. They are 20 years old, don't speak Spanish and both of their parents are dead. I believe it would be cruel to deport such a person, don't you?

When I came to a French speaking country I was in my late 20's. After one month I was able to speak French on a basic level. So he can do the same.

[mash123]

Originally Posted by ListenToYourHeart

This whole "taking our jobs" thing is not really a good argument against the 16-30 year olds who are allowed to stay.

If they are taking your job, they are more qualified and in turn, what do they do with the money. Some of it goes to tax pool and most the rest got put back into the economy generating more jobs. It's not like they take the job, earn the money, and hid it under their bed.

So why do we need borders? Lets open them for anyone with GED and our economy will grow.

[kevxu]

Originally Posted by Gatornation

When Americans took these jobs picking fruit then you'd start complaining about the cost of food.

How many of you on here complaining get your food from local farms and ethical companies that treat animals and workers well? If people cared about more than price there wouldn't be much of a problem.

Right, when you have white native born Americans going out to pull onions, you will see the price go up to fifteen bucks a bunch. And then the big holler will be for cheaper food, and damn those expensive white native born American workers.

[freespiritbutterfly]

Originally Posted by mash123

There is no need to case by case analysis. The child doesn't suppose to enjoy the fruit of the crime. It's that simple.

He will be returned with his family. If his family has a path to a citizenship, then he will wait in the US for legal documents trough his parents.

When I came to a French speaking country I was in my late 20's. After one month I was able to speak French on a basic level. So he can do the same.

True. I'm sure he or she can learn a little bit of Spanish in a month. But you never really answered my question if you think it's immoral to deport an illegal US citizen if he lived there since 3 years of age, has no alive parents, doesn't speak any Spanish and is 20 years of age. What if he doesn't even know where to find his family in Mexico? I'm sure if that was me, I would too be crying angry (and scared) tears into my pillow.

[crankywithakeyboard]

Originally Posted by ListenToYourHeart

Some of you have no idea what kind of effort, dedication, hard work, and talent it takes to be a GREAT student (not to be confused with being a good student) despite adversity.

There are lots of different types of adversity. Much more than just what you've been through. Probably things you can not even imagine. Interesting that you seem to think you are the only one who is/was a great student around here. Keep up with the delusion if it makes you feel better.