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Old 10-04-2007, 07:23 PM
 
Location: Concord, California.
430 posts, read 1,260,556 times
Reputation: 89

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Quote:
Originally Posted by NJ2FL View Post
Hi there. I'm not sure I would agree with your perception of Americans. Of course there are people out there that fit the bill, but unfortunately we all too often resort to stereotyping. I'm not even going to ask you what nationality you are, b/c in all honesty it makes no difference. If I travel to another country, I must be prepared to learn their culture and language. If I went to Spain and didn't speak a lick of spanish but I tried to communicate, that would be one thing. But if I went there and had no intention of trying, and expected them to just KNOW my language, that would be very rude of me and definitely disrespectful of them and their country. That's exactly how I feel about foreigners who travel to the US. If a foreigner comes here, especially if they live here, and do not at least TRY and learn our way of life and culture, language, etc. . . .they are being disrespectful of who and what we as a country are. I meet people of different nationalities and places every day, and I welcome them. If you come from France, Mexico, India, wherever and you are trying to make a life for yourself here, a home for yourself and you want to be a part of this country, I am proud to live in it with you. But please understand, there are foreigners out there who do NOT WANT to, or believe they should not have to learn anytning new to be here. In Miami Florida, there are many hispanics who know no English and it is certainly disheartening. Everyone is equal in my eyes, and I wish everyone happiness and acceptance, but I don't want anyone disrespecting my people and my country either. I think its a give and take and a lot of people take without giving back.
Great way of putting it!

I gave you rep. for this post, -Emil.
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Old 10-04-2007, 07:35 PM
 
Location: Concord, California.
430 posts, read 1,260,556 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by THASPECIAL View Post
I agree that there are good people in all races, but you are from New Jersey and I really don't think you know the history of Miami and the reasons why it has changed.....The first wave of Cubans came and things were not bad after that but a couple decades later there were Colombian drug lords bringing thier ways into our streets in street wars that the U.S. had never seen since the days of Chicago's gangland period, but this was worse......after that Castro sent alot of prisoners and bad people from the Cuban culture over here (along side some normal good Cubans) and ever since then alot of these Latin Americans that only knew that bad way of life had family or friends that were into the same things come over and Miami has never been the same......There are older Cubans that raised good children that you see in Miami as grandkids in thier 20's - 30's today and there are good ones from other races too but there were alot of things that the bad Colombians and Cubans brought from thier culture and still live in america in the same habits....



My father was a cop in Miami and always told me stories of Latin men demanding respect from thier woman and there was a skyrocket in domestic physical abuse cases in Miami with the new attitudes from men beating thier wives or girlfriends because that was normal in thier home country.....and then there was a large part of that same latin population that was hardened in life being in thier country and saw murder as not even a second thought if they felt disrespected.......and there are alot of other things that have happened in Miami underneath the surface too.......it's not the immigrants that are following the rules and respecting our culture that are the problem....its the large amount that has brought thier way of life here because they know no better .......I actually think there is a large population of Cubans and other latins in Miami that are assimilating fine and dont expect people in the U.S. to change and speak thier language......i live in Orlando and there is a large Puerto Rican population here....and i actually had a better time around the Cubans and colombians living in Miami then i do with the Puerto Ricans in Orlando........


there are alot of good Puerto Ricans too that i work with and have as friends alot of them are not proud of being an american None of them says "I'm puerto Rican american"......Lots of Cubans will say they are Cuban-American though......i know Puert Rico is a commonwealth but that means that its part of the U.S. and they should at least fly the american flag too out of respect for thier american brothers that die along side them in the Army, Navy, Air Force, and Marines......i noticed while living in Miami that i saw more Cubans with an american flag next to thier home flag then i ever saw up here with Puerto Ricans having thier flag put up next to an american flag
I think it's inevitable that immigrants will bring things from there own culture and change the culture here, too. I think that's fine AS LONG AS they also follow our rules, and try to fit in over time and be respectful of this country when they get hear. Their are too many don't, but those that do I am fine with, even if they also still practice their own culture. Assimilation takes time, usually at least a couple of generations. That was actualy quite true of past European immigrants as well, contrary to the beliefs of some. And illegal immigration is not acceptable to me at all.

The time it takes for assimilation to occur is one reason I think immigration from anywhere must be limited. -Emil.
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Old 10-04-2007, 08:01 PM
 
Location: Concord, California.
430 posts, read 1,260,556 times
Reputation: 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by NJ2FL View Post
No offense to anyone writing posts on here, but what the hell is wrong with everyone???? I honestly don't get it. I mean, why are we talking about illegal immigrants. Do you hate the illegal immigrants that come here to make a better home for their families and work hard every damn day to pay the bills the same as you and I? Or do you hate the gangs and crime and corruption that is being dealt with daily, b/c its not just caused by hispanics? I'm trying to understand what you're problem is with hispanics? Or any other race for that matter? We do have every right to want to protect our country the same as anyone else. If foreigners are coming here, using our country and disrespecting us, etc etc, then fine! But for the people who come here wanting to take care of their families and wishing for a better life for themselves, and they DO learn our language and culture, what's the god damn problem?? Whites, Blacks, Browns, yellows and friggin purples. . . we're all equal, I'm no better than you and you sure aren't any better than me! Lets stop blaming immigrants for our problems, we've caused plenty before we had a problem with immigration, wake up! Why don't we start with our government to rid ourselves of the gangs and crime and try to see eachother as what we really are, the same! Maybe I'm just really niave, it breaks my heart to see that we can't count on eachother, and teach our children that racism is WRONG! It makes me never want to have kids so they don't have to live in this horrible world and hurt the way we hurt. We have no love or compassion left. Sorry, I don't mean to lecture, it just causes me so much pain to see the hatred that exists here. Good luck to all of us, we really are going to need it.
Some have a problem with all Hispanics and use illegal immigration as an excuse for that. Some people (a lot actualy) are bigots, -all over the world. Unfortunately, a lot of people are also ignorant, and a lot over generalize in destructive way. It sucks.

-however, I DO have a problem with illegal immigrants or immigrants who thing they have a RIGHT to be here, -from any part of the world, including Europe or Canada! I also have a problem with natives who commit crimes or otherwise act in a mean/ugly fashion, or who defend illegal immigration or other immoral or criminal acts, no matter who they are. Yes we as a country have done plenty to create problems for ourselves and to make our problems worse. That is true of illegal immigration, which I do see as a big problem. U.S. employers who utilize and try to justify illegal or mass immigration ans discriminate against the native born working class, the government, and those in the general public who support this or support the worst offending businesses, AS WELL AS the migrants themselves, are all part of this. I cannot help but support financially some farmers who are a part of this problem, but otherwise I am selective about what businesses I utilize, and I grow vegetables in my yard and do not hire any immigrants to do my yard work, clean, etc. -I usually do it myself, and I also know several of people who will do it for hire if needed (and who are not immigrants).

Otherwise, I have no problem with Hispanics or anyone else, as long as they are good people.

Illegal immigrants as individuals may be good people or not, just like anyone else, but collectively they are a problem, no matter where they are from. We cannot take all the poor who want to come here, -we would be swamped. We have to have border controls.

There are limits to what we can handle as a country. -Miami or L.A. or new york all the places with high immigrant concentrations, only can do O.K. becuase those mostly working class natives who cannot handle it there have largely fled to other parts of the country. But if there were that high a concentration of immigrants throughout the country, -we would have very severe problems and would likely soon break up as a country. And I am quite serious about my believing that to be true. -Emil.
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Old 10-04-2007, 08:09 PM
 
Location: Concord, California.
430 posts, read 1,260,556 times
Reputation: 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by NJ2FL View Post
How nice, humour. . . .

First off, we're getting off track, you speak for everyone by saying no one's saying America should deny immigrants yearning for a better life. But you do everyday with the racial comments and slurs toward them. You can be walking down the street and see a hispanic family and automatically think they are here illegally. How do you know they are illegal, how do you know they're not here on a visa?? My point is, you don't know who they are b/c you don't take the time to find out. There are a lot reasons for a lot of bad things going on in the world, but we continue to point the finger at people who could be innocent b/c they were not born here.

It's our fault that we have so many illegal immigrants in the first place! So, in my opinion its kinda hard to blame them. They may be taking advantage of the problem, but we still haven't done anything about it.
Well, I don't asume that someone who is Hispanic is illegal. Most are not illegal in fact. I know some people do, but I don't. I do think some are likely to be when I see them, but I know I could be wrong. And some others (hispanics) I tend to asume not, but I know I could be wrong about that, too. I know that a lot of people don't fit stereotypes, even in those cases where the majority DO (which is not the norm).

And about one forth of illegal immigrants are not even Hispanic. while I don't condone "nativists" who overgeneralize and are bigots, -that's only true of SOME nativists and not others. to asume we are all bigots like that (and many are it's true) -is also bigotry! "reverse bigotry" -is still bigotry! -Emil.
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Old 10-04-2007, 08:16 PM
 
Location: Concord, California.
430 posts, read 1,260,556 times
Reputation: 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by tallrick View Post
Why does racism always enter into discussions about illegal immigration? Illegal means against the law, plain and simple. If you like immigrants so much, then change the law to let anyone who wants to come here in, legally. The immigration laws exist to PROTECT citizens from being overrun with crime, disease and have shortages of resources. Today's world is different than 1900, we are stretched to the limit with our population. Countries with a heavily religious background tend to reproduce profusely and that lowers the standard of living for all. The more babies born in poverty, the cheaper life becomes. It really disgusts me when those people are living in such bad conditions that they have to move to the United States as economic refugees. I wish there was a way to stop the problem at its source- the countries of origin. It's not just Latin America, for a view of how overpopulation ruins a nation just look at Haiti. Corrupt leaders and religion have decimated a tropical island.
True, but is also economic imperialism and corporate greed and just plain greed as well as envy. Jesus warned about this. The U.S. along with France also has a history of doing a lot of bad things in Haiti, for example, and that continues today under the guess of the U.N.

I agree we definitely have too many people in the world today, but human civilization will self destruct from that+greed and inequality. when a species gets over-populated it often goes crazy. It's like with other species, just that humans are world wide, plus the ability to destroy all life on earth with the click of a button.
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Old 10-04-2007, 08:23 PM
 
Location: Concord, California.
430 posts, read 1,260,556 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Newyorker2 View Post
First let me clarify that I was BORN in the United States but unlike most here i am very rooted into my history and where my family comes from and realize that we all came here for the same opportunities..

Lilybeans please clarify for me how many of " People that emigrated here from the past" did it in a lawful way?? This country is BASED on survival of the fittest, it is based on Columbus "discovering" this earth and trapping everyone that lives here in believing that this land belongs to anyone when in fact NOONE owns this land!

And for all the narrowminds who are going to assume that I am hispanic or American Indians because I am defending the rigths of immigrants coming into this country, I'll assure you that I am not! America was ripe for the picking until some sort of laws were instated saying that anyone not born here was an immigrant.. if this were the case.. doesnt that apply to those who "discovered" this place?? I know of Americans who LIVE in other countries and still do not speak a lick of it and are the first to call HOME when disaster strikes .. please spare me!
Ok, if that is the case, than no country on earth has any right to sovereignty, and we should just have a one world government, with the current nations being states. A lot of land has traded hands, been "stolen" throughout the history of human civilization. All countries are lands of immigrants if you go back far enough in time. Just be clear on what you really mean.

Now, you can say none has a right to this land, well, that can be said of anywhere on earth. but that is not very practical if you ask me, and not the way the world works. rules or laws don't just exist for "moral" reasons, or even just that plus to protect power unjustly. They also exist for reasons of practicality, to prevent chaos!
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Old 10-05-2007, 06:29 AM
 
Location: Orlando Florida
1,352 posts, read 5,687,619 times
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I have a comment on the thing about learning English.........Why would hispanics think that they shouldn't have to learn english while living in the U.S.?......I know alot have learned it but there are some who refuse.......Blacks had to learn English after being forced to come over here during the slavery era....so what makes hispanic immigrants nowadays so special?......Italians had to learn english to....and everyone else that has a history in America has adopted English living here in America...why do hispanics say we are being racist ....and when hispanics say "we" are being racist it means all people who have adopted the english language while living through generations in america....it means hispanics are saying that white irish, white italians , Germans, blacks, french americans, asian americans are being racists....ect.
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Old 10-05-2007, 06:43 AM
 
2,143 posts, read 7,055,878 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by THASPECIAL View Post
I have a comment on the thing about learning English.........Why would hispanics think that they shouldn't have to learn english while living in the U.S.?......I know alot have learned it but there are some who refuse.......Blacks had to learn English after being forced to come over here during the slavery era....so what makes hispanic immigrants nowadays so special?......Italians had to learn english to....and everyone else that has a history in America has adopted English living here in America...why do hispanics say we are being racist ....and when hispanics say "we" are being racist it means all people who have adopted the english language while living through generations in america....it means hispanics are saying that white irish, white italians , Germans, blacks, french americans, asian americans are being racists....ect.
When my great grandparents arrived in Eliis Island, they spoke no English. They tried to learn it right away. When they had children ( my grandparents), they insisted that the children speak only English at home.

They believed that when the came to the USA that this was their new country and that they should make the effort to fit in. They did not assume that the country would speak to them in their language. They made it a priority that their children's language was English.

Unfortunately, that does not happen today.
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Old 10-05-2007, 10:05 AM
 
47 posts, read 141,433 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lilybeans View Post
When my great grandparents arrived in Eliis Island, they spoke no English. They tried to learn it right away. When they had children ( my grandparents), they insisted that the children speak only English at home.

They believed that when the came to the USA that this was their new country and that they should make the effort to fit in. They did not assume that the country would speak to them in their language. They made it a priority that their children's language was English.

Unfortunately, that does not happen today.
It's wonderful that your great grandparents felt that way about this country. I am 50% puerto rican, 25% german and 25% turkish, born and raised here. My neice is now 2 1/2 years old, and is learning to speak both english and spanish. I feel it's very important that she speak spanish along with english b/c in her future it will benefit her. Our country is changing, and to be better educated and better able to communicate in different ways is more important than ever. It's important to me that she knows every culture she was born into.

The only thing I have to point out is that it does happen today, there are a lot of ignorant people in the world, but your great grandparents priorities are not dead. It's just a little harder to find today.
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Old 10-05-2007, 11:04 AM
 
61 posts, read 280,838 times
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OK first, let me THANK everyone who has replied to this post! I am new to this forum and dont know how to follow up on my post but i have read soo many valid points from this post that it reminds me why technology rocks! The beauty of the US is that we are all entitled to our own opinion and its great to see how we can all agree to disagree on the topic of immigration.

The last thing that I want to remind everyone..( i may be off for a few weeks, will be traveling with no direct access to email) is that 2 out of 50 states acquired by America, Puerto Rico and Hawaii, both had their own languages when acquired.. Therefore realize that the Puerto Ricans living in the U.S. are considered Americans and that Spanish has also been added as an official language in the US! Not sure if everyone had realized that! Too many "spanish speaking immigrants"...guess what.. a lot of them are U.S. citizens just like you and jsut like you shouldnt be forced to speak another language because of them... shouldnt the same rules apply for them?

Although the Hawaiian language itself is slowly but surely dying, it should also be considered part of U>S Culture! Which brings me back to my point about the "assimilation" question. Is it just the speakers of another language that refuse to assimilate?? Or could it be that Americans dont wish to assimilate to "other" languages and cultures either??
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