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Old 06-26-2012, 12:58 PM
 
Location: Jacurutu
5,302 posts, read 4,015,841 times
Reputation: 601

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Quote:
Originally Posted by chicagonut View Post
No person on entering our country or being here already should get away with just stating they are a citizen or legally here, under lawful contact. They should have to provide proof of that. IMO a DL nor state issued ID should only be given to citizens and those lawfully in our country. If one can't be provided to LE under lawful contact then their status should be investigated. It should have nothing to do with how they look or how they speek. That is exactly how the upheld provision of sb1070 is meant to work. It is merely your biased opinion that Arpaio isn't operating within the law.
But how does your California driver's license prove that you are a U.S. National, and are not required to carry a Resident Card? If it isn't based on how you appear or speak, how exactly do you currently verify to law enforcement that you are not just an LPR without their Resident Card? I thought that SB-1070 was supposed to be a mirror of Federal immigration status checks, so why does it not have to mimic a verbal statement of citizenship being accepted?

Think about the "perfect storm" opportunity that President Obama has. One section of SB-1070 has been upheld, and is now in effect. Sheriff Arpaio has stated that he believes Obama's Hawaiian birth certificate is a forgery, and separately that he will fully enforce immigration law, and SB-1070, as he sees it.

Obama just has to show up at his Maricopa County office. He tells Joe that if he doesn't believe the certificate he must enforce the law (Obama cannot have U.S. citizenship that would be derived from his mother for birth abroad; She was too young at his birth for the required residency in the United States after age 14). It is an excellent "Put up or shut up" opportunity.

And ANY Arizona resident can sue the state after that if they believe Joe hasn't enforced SB-1070, all kinds of nuts would come forward to do it...
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Old 06-26-2012, 01:39 PM
 
Location: Houston, Texas
1,164 posts, read 1,278,921 times
Reputation: 387
Quote:
Originally Posted by noexcuseforignorance View Post
I would guess unless there's a flood of high paying jobs in Mexico they'll keep coming. That Arizona passed a law doesn't mean that there aren't any more illegals in that state.

What really needs to happen is to hold corporations and business owners accountable for employing illegals. The only problem is that they have the party that's supposed to be against illegal immigration in their pocket. There's a reason why the Republican Party in states with a lot of agriculture aren't pushing laws like Arizona. There's also a reason why Republicans didn't do ANYTHING on illegal immigration during Bush's time.

Of course, most of the people who are pissed off about illegal immigration will vote Republican anyways, so why should the Republican Party deal with it?
This isn't about Mexico only, yes 58% of all illegals come from Mexico, but there are other 42% that come from different countries and they are rarely mentioned on here. Also, according to the Pew Hispanic Center immigration from Mexico has dropped significantly; back in 2009, 2010 they said it had dropped more than 80%, it's probably more today?
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Old 06-26-2012, 01:51 PM
 
Location: Houston, Texas
1,164 posts, read 1,278,921 times
Reputation: 387
Quote:
Originally Posted by chicagonut View Post
If the Hispanic citizen is driving without his license he is breaking the law. There will be no defense of that nor could it be called racial profiling so no, the whole house of cards would not fall. How is being ticketed for driving without a license a civil rights issue?

You want restriction of law enforcement and yet you hope this law sticks? You meant the sb1070 law or Obama's dictatorship unwritten law?

There would be no need for extra LE with sb1070. The only thing changed is that under a routine stop for a traffic violation for example LE would have the ability to ask for status if the driver can't provide a valid ID. How is this taking their attention away from other crimes? You're grasping at straws here.
For once we agree, legal citizens who have driver's license or state IDs should not have to worry at all and apparently neither should illegals unless they are committing a felony.
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Old 06-26-2012, 01:52 PM
 
Location: Wasilla, Alaska
17,850 posts, read 19,611,581 times
Reputation: 6479
Quote:
Originally Posted by IBMMuseum View Post
And exactly how do you implement such an idea? A naturalized citizen may not carry specific proof (and is not required, nor to state their citizenship on demand) of that status, but might have an accent or physical features that mark themselves as being foreign-born. We've even gone to the lengths of getting state-issued ID for my stepson (he is a big kid) so that it would be known he wasn't over the age of 18 (at which point he is required to carry his Resident Card). That ID shows his identity, not his immigration status.

For interior Federal immigration enforcement, most commonly the Border Patrol, that "verification" is merely a verbal statement of citizenship. That is, the Border Patrol asks "Are you [or Is everyone in the vehicle] a U.S. citizen?". As a citizen, you are not even required to provide a response (it is a violation if you lie, but you can remain quiet or otherwise not answer the question).

An exercise for the reader is to go through their wallet or purse. Find ID that proves your nationality or citizenship, that someone without U.S. nationality cannot have, or is marked differently from yours for their status. I am only able to produce a New Mexico Voter's ID, but it is on cardstock, without a picture, and probably could be easily fabricated.

Now that you have proven (in most states) that you are at least a Legal Permanent Resident, where is your Resident Card? Not carrying one does not prove you are a U.S. citizen. Are you satisfied that the Federal enforcement level may commonly allow just a verbal statement (if any), and you want local police to be able to go beyond that boundary?

Or are you just relying on the fact that the police will interpret your mannerisms and appearance to mean that they think you are an American? Implemented truthfully, the Arizona police could arrest just about everyone for further immigration status checks at the station. After all, Joe Arpaio would be hypocritical to direct his officers not to do the same level to prove U.S. citizenship as he has done for President Obama.
The burden of proof falls on law enforcement, not the individual being questioned. As long as they are not operating a motorized vehicle, the Supreme Court held that providing one's legal name is sufficient to satisfy the various State "stop-and-identify" laws. They do not have to show any ID, nor do they have to state whether they are US citizens or anything else. It is up to the law enforcement officer to verify the identity and immigration status of the suspect.

Of course if they are operating a motorized vehicle then they must provide a valid operator's license when asked by law enforcement. You still do not have to answer any of the law enforcement officer's questions, or prove that you are a US citizen or legal resident. That is for the law enforcement officer to determine.
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Old 06-26-2012, 01:56 PM
 
14,307 posts, read 11,158,884 times
Reputation: 2130
Quote:
Originally Posted by IBMMuseum View Post
But how does your California driver's license prove that you are a U.S. National, and are not required to carry a Resident Card? If it isn't based on how you appear or speak, how exactly do you currently verify to law enforcement that you are not just an LPR without their Resident Card? I thought that SB-1070 was supposed to be a mirror of Federal immigration status checks, so why does it not have to mimic a verbal statement of citizenship being accepted?

Think about the "perfect storm" opportunity that President Obama has. One section of SB-1070 has been upheld, and is now in effect. Sheriff Arpaio has stated that he believes Obama's Hawaiian birth certificate is a forgery, and separately that he will fully enforce immigration law, and SB-1070, as he sees it.

Obama just has to show up at his Maricopa County office. He tells Joe that if he doesn't believe the certificate he must enforce the law (Obama cannot have U.S. citizenship that would be derived from his mother for birth abroad; She was too young at his birth for the required residency in the United States after age 14). It is an excellent "Put up or shut up" opportunity.

And ANY Arizona resident can sue the state after that if they believe Joe hasn't enforced SB-1070, all kinds of nuts would come forward to do it...
Please read my response to your questions in that other forum. I am not going to repeat it here again.
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Old 06-26-2012, 03:11 PM
 
Location: Jacurutu
5,302 posts, read 4,015,841 times
Reputation: 601
Quote:
Originally Posted by chicagonut View Post
Please read my response to your questions in that other forum. I am not going to repeat it here again.
You've stated that presenting valid DL is enough to comply with SB-1070, whereas the Federal-level method of a verbal declaration of U.S. citizenship should not be. Realistic scenario: My family travels into nearby Arizona. Local police stop us while my wife is driving.

She presents her valid New Mexico driver's license, but it has made the officer suspicious with her accent. In response to his queries, I state that I am a U.S. citizen. Our two younger kids (our eldest doesn't travel with us much now) in the back state they are Legal Permanent Residents, but we do not have their cards with us since they are minors.

By your reasoning, only my wife has complied (and it was incorrect, because she did not show her Resident Card) with the enforcement of SB-1070. My answer is not accepted, because it was verbal. The kids have no other proof of their lawful presence.

How does that accomplish SB-1070's check for illegal immigration?...
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Old 06-26-2012, 03:28 PM
 
Location: Murika
2,526 posts, read 2,505,326 times
Reputation: 1911
Quote:
Originally Posted by lifelongMOgal View Post
I disagree. The "reasonable cause" qualifier was very clear. Profiling in law enforcement is tracked very carefully these days. I read somewhere that in my state leo's question the citizenship status of every person arrested at the time of booking. This is not profiling since every person arrested is asked the same question regardless of race, gender, etc... .
I do hope that you are right. Looking at the way law enforcement often handles such blank checks, I remain doubtful.
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Old 06-26-2012, 03:56 PM
 
1,580 posts, read 1,424,286 times
Reputation: 748
Quote:
Originally Posted by plwhit View Post
^^^ If you can't speak a word of English it's pretty sure one is an illegal alien....
Exactly
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Old 06-26-2012, 04:17 PM
 
14,307 posts, read 11,158,884 times
Reputation: 2130
Quote:
Originally Posted by IBMMuseum View Post
You've stated that presenting valid DL is enough to comply with SB-1070, whereas the Federal-level method of a verbal declaration of U.S. citizenship should not be. Realistic scenario: My family travels into nearby Arizona. Local police stop us while my wife is driving.

She presents her valid New Mexico driver's license, but it has made the officer suspicious with her accent. In response to his queries, I state that I am a U.S. citizen. Our two younger kids (our eldest doesn't travel with us much now) in the back state they are Legal Permanent Residents, but we do not have their cards with us since they are minors.

By your reasoning, only my wife has complied (and it was incorrect, because she did not show her Resident Card) with the enforcement of SB-1070. My answer is not accepted, because it was verbal. The kids have no other proof of their lawful presence.

How does that accomplish SB-1070's check for illegal immigration?...
Why don't you ask for the particulars of sb1070 and as to how it relates to minor "immigrants" rather than asking me? I didn't write the law nor do I know the particulars for minors in a car. Are minors required to carry their "immigration" cards? Do they have any? If so, and you didn't have them with you then the problem lays with you and your wife.

All I know is that adults will be asked for their DL when stopped during lawful contact and if it can be provided no further questions will be asked about "their" status in this country.

Last edited by chicagonut; 06-26-2012 at 04:51 PM..
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Old 06-26-2012, 04:21 PM
 
14,307 posts, read 11,158,884 times
Reputation: 2130
Quote:
Originally Posted by Canaan-84 View Post
This isn't about Mexico only, yes 58% of all illegals come from Mexico, but there are other 42% that come from different countries and they are rarely mentioned on here. Also, according to the Pew Hispanic Center immigration from Mexico has dropped significantly; back in 2009, 2010 they said it had dropped more than 80%, it's probably more today?
Actually, 80% of illegal aliens are from Latino countries with Mexicans making up the largest numbers. Even if were true that illegal immigration from Mexico is down significantly (which I doubt) there are still millions of them here so why should we stop complaining about them until the bulk of them are gone?
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