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Old 07-22-2012, 08:39 PM
 
Location: Maryland
15,179 posts, read 15,807,269 times
Reputation: 3028

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank_Knight View Post
Dreamers are a minority within the illegal community. The majority are composed of their parents, and those who came into the country unmarried. Birthright citizenship keeps the Dreamer numbers low in proportion to other groups within the illegal community. Outside of the Dreamers there are few highly skilled illegals. The vast majority are still in the bottom of the skill ladder.

Even if illegals were composed entirely of highly skilled Dreamers though, this wouldn't be bad for America. Again, yes, we'd see nominal wages lower as the labour supply increased. This decrease would occur from any increase in the labour supply regardless of its source. And regardless of the source of the increase, we'd see inputs (wages) decrease which would lead to a decrease in the cost of goods and services. Thus making real wages, the amount of goods and services that can be purchased on one's wages, increase.

If you really want to keep the current labour supply, why not blow up every trade school and university in your area? That'd do away with skilled labour. Or why not make every woman in the country infertile? That would really decrease the labour supply and lead to an increase in nominal wages for everyone.

Of course, nominal wages would mean nothing in this scenario because although everyone might earn 100$ an hour, the cost of goods would be so high that real wages would be substantially lowered.

One thing is to be against illegal immigration because its a violation of immigration. The issue of welfare is alone a valid reason to oppose it.

It is another thing however to attack illegal immigration on the basis that it increases the labour supply though.
I oppose illegal immigration for numerous reasons, including their impact on wages and their displacement of legal workers. I consider all of my reasons valid. They have made a complete mockery of our laws and sovereignty, and are bankrupting this country. I don't care about their race, ethnicity, or nationality. They are here illegally, and it is way past time for our laws to be enforced.
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Old 07-22-2012, 10:27 PM
 
153 posts, read 108,538 times
Reputation: 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
I oppose illegal immigration for numerous reasons, including their impact on wages and their displacement of legal workers. I consider all of my reasons valid. They have made a complete mockery of our laws and sovereignty, and are bankrupting this country. I don't care about their race, ethnicity, or nationality. They are here illegally, and it is way past time for our laws to be enforced.
I have to stress the difference between legislation and law. The latter, law, deals with matter of property and other customs that have been shaped over time. Legislation on the other hand is dictated by the sovereign in the form of Congressional bills, status, Princely decrees, Papal Bull etc etc.

Illegals have broken legislation, and that isn't necessarily a bad thing. Many pieces of legislation are not optimal for society, or simply corrupt. Take for example the current legislation against same-sex marriage or the use of marijuana. We're reaching a point we're both legislation are being considered silly by large segments of the population. In a few years the ban on same-sex marriage will seem as silly as bans on inter-racial marriage that existed before. And the ban on marijuana will look as silly as the prohibition era's ban on alcohol. The concept of illegal immigration itself is fairly new and only seriously took hold after WW2 saw the implementation of the current broken immigration system we have now.

The reason it's hard to take seriously anyone who says their great-great-grandparent entered legally is because legally entering for much of our history was a simple process of getting a health check. You didn't have illegals because it was so easy to do it the legal way. Now a days the system is so broke that it's impractical to do so for millions; and for several other million it's outright impossible. If our current immigration laws had been effect when the Constitution was adopted our history books would be filled with the problems of those damned illegal Germans and Irish.

This whole deal about them violating our 'sovereignty' is just an attempt to add more emotion into the debate. If you're for immigration reform you're obviously unAmerican! etc.

As for this moral concern about others taking 'American' jobs. It's equal to the anger union members have other non-union workers taking 'their' jobs. A job isn't owned by the worker. It's up to the employer and an employee to voluntarily agree to a work contract. The fact that many illegals have employment means that employers are willing to employ them. And you know what? That's the optimal result as far as economics tells us if we're concerned about real wages.

The only solid complain I see in the issue is welfare, but this presumes that illegals don't pay taxes. This isn't true though. Many pay through roundabouts ways, and the IRS issues tax payer numbers for many. Even many indirect taxes such as property taxes ultimately fall on illegals because of how inelastic property is. A balanced approach to dealing with this issue would be lowering welfare benefits - which is something that should be done irregardless. The reason states like California are going belly up is because of their high pensions for state employees, MediCal, and other state welfare programs. If the state focused on public goods we wouldn't have this issue.

Take for example of roads, one of the few roles of government that many agree is proper. The tax that pays for roads is through a tax on gasoline. Illegals, Citizens, and even tourists alike have to buy gasoline and thus contribute to the tax fund for gasoline. No way to get around it. If other state programs were funded like this it wouldn't matter, as far as the welfare state aspect went, what one's migration status was.


Ultimately the great problem before us is not an issue of immigration, for it is only a symptom of the disease and not the disease itself. Nay, the true problem our country has is one of reforming the welfare state.
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Old 07-22-2012, 11:29 PM
 
Location: Maryland
15,179 posts, read 15,807,269 times
Reputation: 3028
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank_Knight View Post
I have to stress the difference between legislation and law. The latter, law, deals with matter of property and other customs that have been shaped over time. Legislation on the other hand is dictated by the sovereign in the form of Congressional bills, status, Princely decrees, Papal Bull etc etc.

Illegals have broken legislation, and that isn't necessarily a bad thing. Many pieces of legislation are not optimal for society, or simply corrupt. Take for example the current legislation against same-sex marriage or the use of marijuana. We're reaching a point we're both legislation are being considered silly by large segments of the population. In a few years the ban on same-sex marriage will seem as silly as bans on inter-racial marriage that existed before. And the ban on marijuana will look as silly as the prohibition era's ban on alcohol. The concept of illegal immigration itself is fairly new and only seriously took hold after WW2 saw the implementation of the current broken immigration system we have now.

The reason it's hard to take seriously anyone who says their great-great-grandparent entered legally is because legally entering for much of our history was a simple process of getting a health check. You didn't have illegals because it was so easy to do it the legal way. Now a days the system is so broke that it's impractical to do so for millions; and for several other million it's outright impossible. If our current immigration laws had been effect when the Constitution was adopted our history books would be filled with the problems of those damned illegal Germans and Irish.

This whole deal about them violating our 'sovereignty' is just an attempt to add more emotion into the debate. If you're for immigration reform you're obviously unAmerican! etc.

As for this moral concern about others taking 'American' jobs. It's equal to the anger union members have other non-union workers taking 'their' jobs. A job isn't owned by the worker. It's up to the employer and an employee to voluntarily agree to a work contract. The fact that many illegals have employment means that employers are willing to employ them. And you know what? That's the optimal result as far as economics tells us if we're concerned about real wages.

The only solid complain I see in the issue is welfare, but this presumes that illegals don't pay taxes. This isn't true though. Many pay through roundabouts ways, and the IRS issues tax payer numbers for many. Even many indirect taxes such as property taxes ultimately fall on illegals because of how inelastic property is. A balanced approach to dealing with this issue would be lowering welfare benefits - which is something that should be done irregardless. The reason states like California are going belly up is because of their high pensions for state employees, MediCal, and other state welfare programs. If the state focused on public goods we wouldn't have this issue.

Take for example of roads, one of the few roles of government that many agree is proper. The tax that pays for roads is through a tax on gasoline. Illegals, Citizens, and even tourists alike have to buy gasoline and thus contribute to the tax fund for gasoline. No way to get around it. If other state programs were funded like this it wouldn't matter, as far as the welfare state aspect went, what one's migration status was.


Ultimately the great problem before us is not an issue of immigration, for it is only a symptom of the disease and not the disease itself. Nay, the true problem our country has is one of reforming the welfare state.
Call it whatever you want. This is the United States of America, a sovereign nation. We have internationally recognized borders, and immigration laws which govern who, when, where, and how foreign nationals may enter and reside in this country. As such, no foreigner has a right, either legally or morally, to enter our country without permission.

Furthermore, the more pressing issue is the deliberate misinterpretation of the 14th Amendment, which has allowed millions of illegal aliens to give birth to U.S. citizens. THIS is a major factor in the abuse of our welfare system, and THIS is bankrupting our country.

We owe illegal aliens NOTHING. Nor do we need to reform ANY of our laws to accommodate their presence in this country. We need to strictly enforce ALL of our current laws, fine and imprison illegal employers, deny all benefits to those here illegally other than emergency medical treatment, give them a specified time to leave this country, or start apprehending and deporting. Enough is enough.
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Old 07-22-2012, 11:40 PM
 
Location: Jacurutu
5,302 posts, read 4,009,391 times
Reputation: 601
Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
...Furthermore, the more pressing issue is the deliberate misinterpretation of the 14th Amendment, which has allowed millions of illegal aliens to give birth to U.S. citizens. THIS is a major factor in the abuse of our welfare system, and THIS is bankrupting our country...
I am all for you elaborating further on this "deliberate misinterpretation"...

Who knows, phrased in the right way, there could be a discussion in P&OC blaming Obama for it...
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Old 07-22-2012, 11:57 PM
 
Location: Maryland
15,179 posts, read 15,807,269 times
Reputation: 3028
Quote:
Originally Posted by IBMMuseum View Post
I am all for you elaborating further on this "deliberate misinterpretation"...

Who knows, phrased in the right way, there could be a discussion in P&OC blaming Obama for it...
Sorry, I get no pleasure from beating a dead horse. This topic has been discussed in this forum ad nauseam, and I have said all I have to say. If you want to refresh your memory, use the search function. But, you are certainly entitled to start a thread in P&OC, although I believe it has been discussed there as well. Good night.
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Old 07-23-2012, 12:40 AM
 
1,150 posts, read 990,683 times
Reputation: 369
Quote:
Originally Posted by IBMMuseum View Post
Define "welfare check"...

Welfare=a social service
Check= a draft drawn on a bank
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Old 07-23-2012, 08:48 AM
 
Location: Jacurutu
5,302 posts, read 4,009,391 times
Reputation: 601
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jayarcy View Post
I won't be a bit surprised if the next thing we hear is US citizen children living in Mexico with their Mexican citizen parents are receiving welfare checks from the US.
Why would there ever be a case that the U.S. government sends a "welfare check" to Mexican citizens (I'm speculating that you mean former illegal aliens) for their U.S. citizen children?...
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Old 07-28-2012, 06:48 AM
 
1,922 posts, read 1,439,028 times
Reputation: 794
Quote:
tens of thousands of those children without Mexican citizenship now find themselves without access to basic services in Mexico—unable to officially register in school or sign up for health care at public hospitals and clinics that give free check-ups and medicines.
Oh the irony...
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Old 07-28-2012, 07:48 AM
 
20,611 posts, read 12,278,864 times
Reputation: 5895
Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
Call it whatever you want. This is the United States of America, a sovereign nation. We have internationally recognized borders, and immigration laws which govern who, when, where, and how foreign nationals may enter and reside in this country. As such, no foreigner has a right, either legally or morally, to enter our country without permission.

Furthermore, the more pressing issue is the deliberate misinterpretation of the 14th Amendment, which has allowed millions of illegal aliens to give birth to U.S. citizens. THIS is a major factor in the abuse of our welfare system, and THIS is bankrupting our country.

We owe illegal aliens NOTHING. Nor do we need to reform ANY of our laws to accommodate their presence in this country. We need to strictly enforce ALL of our current laws, fine and imprison illegal employers, deny all benefits to those here illegally other than emergency medical treatment, give them a specified time to leave this country, or start apprehending and deporting. Enough is enough.
Agreed.
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Old 07-28-2012, 07:59 AM
 
47,576 posts, read 58,690,207 times
Reputation: 22158
Yes, there is nothing that is owed to the illegals -- we already have by far the highest number of legal immigrants of any nation on earth.

Sure they want the easy life, the huge safety nets, the ability to have many children and never have to worry about how to feed them or provide medical care and housing to them -- but no one owes them that.

They have done nothing for their own country, they have pushed through no reforms, in fact illegal immigration is simply every man for himself, the illegals care nothing about those fools left behind unless they too decide to break the laws and get over here.

The only way illegal immigration really benefits the sending nations is that they lose their least capable, most illiterate impoverished classes.
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