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Old 07-22-2012, 09:18 AM
 
Location: Great State of Texas
86,052 posts, read 84,281,002 times
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Mexico does not want it's poor. Poor people do nothing to advance a country.
You read how strict they are with immigration compared to us.

Record number of deportations my foot. Even Obama said the number was skewed because they counted those turned away at border crossings and those that voluntarily went back.

And the magic number of "12 million illegals" has been told to us since the Reagan amnesty.
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Old 07-22-2012, 10:35 AM
 
153 posts, read 130,990 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HappyTexan View Post
Poor people do nothing to advance a country.
You understand that an advanced economy needs 'poor' people to do unskilled jobs right? It's be wasteful to have higher skilled people doing jobs that require less training. It'd be like using a limo to do the work of a cheap truck.

Quote:
Record number of deportations my foot. Even Obama said the number was skewed because they counted those turned away at border crossings and those that voluntarily went back.
He's had a record number of deportations. Anyone with family or friends who start disappearing is bound to notice the difference between administration. The Obama administration has been worse for illegals than either Clinton or Bush Jr. administrations.

You might (and probably do) think that more deportations are good. Okay; but that doesn't mean that Obama has been a saint to illegals. He wants to look like a saint to garner votes. He's far from it though.
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Old 07-22-2012, 10:43 AM
 
20,524 posts, read 15,855,064 times
Reputation: 5943
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank_Knight View Post
You understand that an advanced economy needs 'poor' people to do unskilled jobs right? It's be wasteful to have higher skilled people doing jobs that require less training. It'd be like using a limo to do the work of a cheap truck.



He's had a record number of deportations. Anyone with family or friends who start disappearing is bound to notice the difference between administration. The Obama administration has been worse for illegals than either Clinton or Bush Jr. administrations.

You might (and probably do) think that more deportations are good. Okay; but that doesn't mean that Obama has been a saint to illegals. He wants to look like a saint to garner votes. He's far from it though.
No. I say that cause low wage people can cost "society" MORE money to care for like medical care and so on. Pay them more and they cost us less. Sheesh!
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Old 07-22-2012, 12:25 PM
 
Location: Too far from home.
8,732 posts, read 6,767,110 times
Reputation: 2374
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank_Knight View Post
You understand that an advanced economy needs 'poor' people to do unskilled jobs right? It's be wasteful to have higher skilled people doing jobs that require less training. It'd be like using a limo to do the work of a cheap truck.
You do realize that because of the number of illegals taking jobs that pay below the hourly wage as it related to the job market (construction, electrical, auto mechanic), have driven wages down? Illegals do unskilled and skilled jobs, but taking more and more jobs in areas that require skill. Because they are cheap labor, they get on the job training and never obtain licenses to qualify them to do specific jobs.

How can that be a good thing? American citizen construction worker: $25 per hour; Illegal worker: $10 per hour. This has happened in many industries.

Illlegals are doing jobs that require licensed people to do them - licenses that are obtained through state agencies, indicators that they are trained professionals that are qualified to do the job and after investing in themselves by going to trade school, learning their trade, and become licensed, the demand for the US citizen is less due to the unskilled, unlicensed on-the-job-trained cheap labor illegal.
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Old 07-22-2012, 01:32 PM
 
Location: Maryland
15,171 posts, read 18,519,626 times
Reputation: 3044
Quote:
Originally Posted by softblueyz View Post
You do realize that because of the number of illegals taking jobs that pay below the hourly wage as it related to the job market (construction, electrical, auto mechanic), have driven wages down? Illegals do unskilled and skilled jobs, but taking more and more jobs in areas that require skill. Because they are cheap labor, they get on the job training and never obtain licenses to qualify them to do specific jobs.

How can that be a good thing? American citizen construction worker: $25 per hour; Illegal worker: $10 per hour. This has happened in many industries.

Illlegals are doing jobs that require licensed people to do them - licenses that are obtained through state agencies, indicators that they are trained professionals that are qualified to do the job and after investing in themselves by going to trade school, learning their trade, and become licensed, the demand for the US citizen is less due to the unskilled, unlicensed on-the-job-trained cheap labor illegal.
Yes, it's absolute BS that illegals are only doing jobs Americans won't do.

Quote:
ICE, part of the Department of Homeland Security, has conducted investigations at 196 airports and audited more than 5,800 businesses under what it calls Operation Tarmac. The ongoing sting targets employers and unauthorized workers who have access to sensitive areas at airports. More than 5,800 unauthorized airport workers have been identified, and in addition to the 1,000 arrests, ICE has issued 775 criminal indictments.

It's clear that the system has broken down when illegal workers numbering in the hundreds and thousands are using fraudulent driver's licenses, social security numbers, and counterfeit immigration residence cards to obtain employment at airports, maintenance companies, defense contractors, and aerospace manufacturers.
Aviation Today :: News

Also, due to greed, illegals, some even unlicensed, are working as aircraft mechanics for airlines. Even more disturbing is the fact that they can't read the instruction manuals, or communicate with English-speaking supervisors.

Quote:
But of the 236 Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) certified aircraft repair stations in Texas, WFAA -- News 8 of Dallas has learned that hundreds of the mechanics working in those shops do not speak English and are unable to read repair manuals:

The root of the problems is money, mechanics say. A certified mechanic can earn upwards of $25 an hour in Texas. Technicians who can't speak English are often hired for less than $10.

However, the FAA is supposed to police repair stations, but insiders say the agency is more focused on looking at paperwork than inspecting the facilities.
AIRLINE MECHANICS WHO CAN'T READ ENGLISH
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Old 07-22-2012, 01:55 PM
 
Location: Too far from home.
8,732 posts, read 6,767,110 times
Reputation: 2374
Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
Aviation Today :: News

Also, due to greed, illegals, some even unlicensed, are working as aircraft mechanics for airlines. Even more disturbing is the fact that they can't read the instruction manuals, or communicate with English-speaking supervisors.


AIRLINE MECHANICS WHO CAN'T READ ENGLISH
Scarey stuff!! And those companies claim that they can't find Americans to do the work? This is all about company profit. It's not about quality, but quantity. Why make $7 million profit when you can make $12 million?
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Old 07-22-2012, 04:21 PM
 
153 posts, read 130,990 times
Reputation: 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by Packard fan View Post
No. I say that cause low wage people can cost "society" MORE money to care for like medical care and so on. Pay them more and they cost us less. Sheesh!
I'm not defending the welfare system. I'm quite sure I've made it a repeating theme that the welfare system needs to be reformed because of how intertwined it is with the issue of illegal immigration, and other issues facing America today. You're completely right, net tax recipients are a burden to the economy.

Net tax recipients are not all necessarily poor. Nor are all illegals net tax recipients. In fact many members of the middle class are net tax recipients. Several rich people are net tax recipients. Net tax recipients and the poor are not mutually inclusive to one another. There is certainly much overlap, but not mutual inclusion.




Quote:
Originally Posted by softblueyz View Post
You do realize that because of the number of illegals taking jobs that pay below the hourly wage as it related to the job market (construction, electrical, auto mechanic), have driven wages down? Illegals do unskilled and skilled jobs, but taking more and more jobs in areas that require skill. Because they are cheap labor, they get on the job training and never obtain licenses to qualify them to do specific jobs.

How can that be a good thing? American citizen construction worker: $25 per hour; Illegal worker: $10 per hour. This has happened in many industries.

Illlegals are doing jobs that require licensed people to do them - licenses that are obtained through state agencies, indicators that they are trained professionals that are qualified to do the job and after investing in themselves by going to trade school, learning their trade, and become licensed, the demand for the US citizen is less due to the unskilled, unlicensed on-the-job-trained cheap labor illegal.
Do you understand the concept of comparative advantage? Or the difference between nominal and real prices? It's okay if you don't. Economics is rightfully called the dismal science.

You are correct that an increase in the labour supply, be it from migration (both illegal and legal), increased child births, or a human cloning machine, depresses wages downward if demand remains the same. You are correct in saying that nominal wages go down than they would be otherwise.

But high nominal wages aren't inherently good. In fact, they can easily be very bad. High nominal wages signify an increase in the inputs of the production cycle. This means that it's more costly to produce goods and services. Higher cost of goods then mean that although we might see nominal wages increase, real wages, the amount of goods and services that can be purchased, has decreased.

Here is a video on comparative advantage in case you aren't familiar with the concept:



Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
Yes, it's absolute BS that illegals are only doing jobs Americans won't do.
You're correct. A more proper analysis would note that it isn't that Americans don't want to do these jobs. It's that many of these jobs are valued underneath the minimum wage. Some Americans are willing to work under the table to avoid minimum wage laws, but many do not. If you want Americans to be getting these jobs then we must get rid of minimum wage laws. Otherwise illegals, and others willing to work under the table, will be the only ones getting these jobs.
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Old 07-22-2012, 05:32 PM
 
Location: Maryland
15,171 posts, read 18,519,626 times
Reputation: 3044
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank_Knight View Post
You're correct. A more proper analysis would note that it isn't that Americans don't want to do these jobs. It's that many of these jobs are valued underneath the minimum wage. Some Americans are willing to work under the table to avoid minimum wage laws, but many do not. If you want Americans to be getting these jobs then we must get rid of minimum wage laws. Otherwise illegals, and others willing to work under the table, will be the only ones getting these jobs.
I disagree. Illegals can be found working in every industry, and in most occupations from low-skilled to professional. In fact, Dreamies are chomping at the bit in anticipation of their deferred action, in hopes of landing higher paying jobs.

This country has shamefully allowed itself to be the dumping ground for the world, the welfare state for Mexico, and a free-for-all for all who manage to breach our border security. People are entering this country illegally from everywhere. Why not? It is now common knowledge our government refuses to enforce our immigration laws, and our borders are as porous as ever, despite the lies told by Obama and Napolitano.

If we eliminate the minimum wage, we would essentially have legalized slavery. Do you actually believe there aren't people desperate enough to work for $2 or $3 per hour, and employers greedy enough to exploit them? Heck, to someone who prior to coming to the U.S. made 75 cents working in a sweatshop, $2 is a dream come true.
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Old 07-22-2012, 07:47 PM
 
20,524 posts, read 15,855,064 times
Reputation: 5943
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank_Knight View Post
I'm not defending the welfare system. I'm quite sure I've made it a repeating theme that the welfare system needs to be reformed because of how intertwined it is with the issue of illegal immigration, and other issues facing America today. You're completely right, net tax recipients are a burden to the economy.

Net tax recipients are not all necessarily poor. Nor are all illegals net tax recipients. In fact many members of the middle class are net tax recipients. Several rich people are net tax recipients. Net tax recipients and the poor are not mutually inclusive to one another. There is certainly much overlap, but not mutual inclusion.






Do you understand the concept of comparative advantage? Or the difference between nominal and real prices? It's okay if you don't. Economics is rightfully called the dismal science.

You are correct that an increase in the labour supply, be it from migration (both illegal and legal), increased child births, or a human cloning machine, depresses wages downward if demand remains the same. You are correct in saying that nominal wages go down than they would be otherwise.

But high nominal wages aren't inherently good. In fact, they can easily be very bad. High nominal wages signify an increase in the inputs of the production cycle. This means that it's more costly to produce goods and services. Higher cost of goods then mean that although we might see nominal wages increase, real wages, the amount of goods and services that can be purchased, has decreased.

Here is a video on comparative advantage in case you aren't familiar with the concept:





You're correct. A more proper analysis would note that it isn't that Americans don't want to do these jobs. It's that many of these jobs are valued underneath the minimum wage. Some Americans are willing to work under the table to avoid minimum wage laws, but many do not. If you want Americans to be getting these jobs then we must get rid of minimum wage laws. Otherwise illegals, and others willing to work under the table, will be the only ones getting these jobs.
Just toss out the illegal aliens THEN we can talk about getting rid of minimum wage. Make it hard as hell to immigrate to the US.
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Old 07-22-2012, 08:19 PM
 
153 posts, read 130,990 times
Reputation: 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
I disagree. Illegals can be found working in every industry, and in most occupations from low-skilled to professional. In fact, Dreamies are chomping at the bit in anticipation of their deferred action, in hopes of landing higher paying jobs.

This country has shamefully allowed itself to be the dumping ground for the world, the welfare state for Mexico, and a free-for-all for all who manage to breach our border security. People are entering this country illegally from everywhere. Why not? It is now common knowledge our government refuses to enforce our immigration laws, and our borders are as porous as ever, despite the lies told by Obama and Napolitano.

If we eliminate the minimum wage, we would essentially have legalized slavery. Do you actually believe there aren't people desperate enough to work for $2 or $3 per hour, and employers greedy enough to exploit them? Heck, to someone who prior to coming to the U.S. made 75 cents working in a sweatshop, $2 is a dream come true.
Dreamers are a minority within the illegal community. The majority are composed of their parents, and those who came into the country unmarried. Birthright citizenship keeps the Dreamer numbers low in proportion to other groups within the illegal community. Outside of the Dreamers there are few highly skilled illegals. The vast majority are still in the bottom of the skill ladder.

Even if illegals were composed entirely of highly skilled Dreamers though, this wouldn't be bad for America. Again, yes, we'd see nominal wages lower as the labour supply increased. This decrease would occur from any increase in the labour supply regardless of its source. And regardless of the source of the increase, we'd see inputs (wages) decrease which would lead to a decrease in the cost of goods and services. Thus making real wages, the amount of goods and services that can be purchased on one's wages, increase.

If you really want to keep the current labour supply, why not blow up every trade school and university in your area? That'd do away with skilled labour. Or why not make every woman in the country infertile? That would really decrease the labour supply and lead to an increase in nominal wages for everyone.

Of course, nominal wages would mean nothing in this scenario because although everyone might earn 100$ an hour, the cost of goods would be so high that real wages would be substantially lowered.

One thing is to be against illegal immigration because its a violation of immigration. The issue of welfare is alone a valid reason to oppose it.

It is another thing however to attack illegal immigration on the basis that it increases the labour supply though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Packard fan View Post
Just toss out the illegal aliens THEN we can talk about getting rid of minimum wage. Make it hard as hell to immigrate to the US.
Cato has an interesting view on why the 'deport the illegals before considering reform' mentality is wrong.

Alternatively though; the reason we have so many illegal aliens is because it is already so hard to immigrate into the United States. There is a lot of emotion in the issue of illegal immigration on both sides, but in economic terms it's a simple price floor in the cost to immigration. Increasing the cost of immigration will see a decrease in the quantity demanded for immigration (legal immigration), but at the same time it causes a black market for quantity supplied (illegal immigration).

Here, hopefully this graph I drew helps:



As you can see, the welfare system in the United States lowers the effective cost of immigration which leads to an increase in the supply. This is represented in the shift from equilibrium at Q1/P1 to Q2/P2. The optimal policy choice would be to increase the cost of immigration back to Q1/P1. Due to political forces though we end up at QD-S/P3.

QD represents demanded immigration (legal immigration).
QS represents supplied immigration (illegal immigration).

Ironically its this increased cost of immigration that has lead to an increase in illegal immigration. Traditionally migrants from Mexico to the United States were seasonal and went back home after the harvest was finished. This meant only those of age migrated, and they left their families at home. Due to our poor worker visa program though its costly for this traditional migration pattern to occur, and instead illegals bring not only themselves but their families as well. This includes not only wives, but children (as represented by DREAMers). Then you have grandparents, uncles, aunts, etc etc who are brought along as well.

Increasing the cost of immigration won't do anything to help. If anything it'll increase the illegal immigrant population while decreasing the legal immigration population. Plus, it should go without saying that the black market will increase due to all of this. You want to impose a national ID? Black market will supply those, and we'll see more fraud and identify theft. Tattoo each citizen with a barcode ensuring they're American citizens? You'll see murders of people trying to get those barcodes.

Greater enforcement won't help. It'll only lead to the creation of a greater police state and more violence from the black market.




P.S. It seems so many of you seem to believe that the minimum wage law is helpful. It isn't. It's just a price floor that artificially raises the wage of a few people at the cost of increasing unemployment for those in the lower skill ladder of the economy. It's a form of 'middle class' welfare now that I think about it. The few people who benefit from it are usually those who already have relatively high paying jobs at the expense of the unskilled. Namely the poor and the young.

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