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Old 07-24-2012, 09:47 AM
 
Location: New Jersey
12,775 posts, read 7,378,463 times
Reputation: 13043

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Quote:
Originally Posted by desertdetroiter View Post
Again, why didn't your ancestors stay in their native countries and fix the problems there instead of running here? I don't care about all this nonsense about what they built here (because i don't believe that either).

Moreover, the handouts thing is bunk. Please, millions of European immigrants arrived in this country with NOTHING. How do you come here with absolutely nothing, often with children in tow, and you had no help at all from some institution? How do you find housing, get food, get a job, pay for a doctor, if you have nothing?

Revisionist, romantic nonsense.
Because, back in those days the country NEEDED immigrants. Land was cheap and there was plenty to be had for those who would never have any in their home countries. The country was producing lots of goods and needed labor for the factories. (horrible conditions, though)

I'd have to see your proof that 'millions came with nothing'. Many families followed their spouses after they had come by themselves and found a place to live, a job, etc.

It was a different time and a different country when mass European immigration occurred.
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Old 07-24-2012, 09:57 AM
 
Location: Jacurutu
5,302 posts, read 4,010,077 times
Reputation: 601
Quote:
Originally Posted by softblueyz View Post
There's a difference between then and now.

Then: there were no government programs or government handouts. Immigrants knew that in order to survive they had to work hard. They knew that there were two options: succeed or fail. Failure meant returning back to their country. They couldn't rely on government handouts because there weren't any.

Now: That mentality does not exist in the majority of immigrants that come to the US. What they do know is that they have a financial safety net provided by the governemtn which will take care of all their needs.
A notion, especially regarding travel costs of the time, that an olden-day immigrant is going to return home destitute is far-fetched (I had one Great Great Grandfather that returned to bring his prospective bride). They came in groups, many times multi-family. All of my lines, strictly from Europe, were here before the establishment of Ellis Island, and would have had no audits to their fitness or legality.

The ultimate point is how anyone would really know. Don't believe family stories, they are embellished at the very least, pure fiction at the worst. I have found direct relatives that split apart families, had court judgements of fraud leveled against them, perjured themselves in testimony, and committed suicide. More distantly a rapist executed by the state, and violent family feuds.

Germanic areas and Swedes (a full third of their population over time) often left to get out of mandatory military conscription. Stories of gold rushes and open land for the taking lured immigrants. For many even in Europe there was no chance to better their lot, and America was viewed as a path that could be easier on themselves.

There has also always been a resistance to new immigrants, and whole American policies developed on the stereotypes of another group of people...

I recognize the factors of illegal immigration, but I also realize the misconceptions and lies that are spread about it. When I see deception and other motivations trying to unfairly prove a point, I know that it distracts and detracts from the debate. Most of the time I will even quickly scan through an opposing comment because I know the author has no value to what they are saying, and it is not worthy of a response.

Others that want to ignore or avoid my posts because I irritate them, well that is fine too...
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Old 07-24-2012, 10:08 AM
 
Location: Jacurutu
5,302 posts, read 4,010,077 times
Reputation: 601
Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
...the immigrants you referenced were granted permission to enter this country...
Or rather had no established opposition to them coming here...

I think a good exercise in logic would be to wonder if they had been told they had to initially sneak in, but could remain unmolested once present, would they still have come?...
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Old 07-24-2012, 10:09 AM
 
Location: Maryland
15,179 posts, read 15,809,199 times
Reputation: 3028
Quote:
Originally Posted by IBMMuseum View Post
A notion, especially regarding travel costs of the time, that an olden-day immigrant is going to return home destitute is far-fetched (I had one Great Great Grandfather that returned to bring his prospective bride). They came in groups, many times multi-family. All of my lines, strictly from Europe, were here before the establishment of Ellis Island, and would have had no audits to their fitness or legality.

The ultimate point is how anyone would really know. Don't believe family stories, they are embellished at the very least, pure fiction at the worst. I have found direct relatives that split apart families, had court judgements of fraud leveled against them, perjured themselves in testimony, and committed suicide. More distantly a rapist executed by the state, and violent family feuds.

Germanic areas and Swedes (a full third of their population over time) often left to get out of mandatory military conscription. Stories of gold rushes and open land for the taking lured immigrants. For many even in Europe there was no chance to better their lot, and America was viewed as a path that could be easier on themselves.

There has also always been a resistance to new immigrants, and whole American policies developed on the stereotypes of another group of people...

I recognize the factors of illegal immigration, but I also realize the misconceptions and lies that are spread about it. When I see deception and other motivations trying to unfairly prove a point, I know that it distracts and detracts from the debate. Most of the time I will even quickly scan through an opposing comment because I know the author has no value to what they are saying, and it is not worthy of a response.

Others that want to ignore or avoid my posts because I irritate them, well that is fine too...
Did they have access to welfare, WIC, subsidized housing, maternity care, organ transplants, kidney dialysis, or food stamps -- all borne by U.S. taxpayers? There's a huge difference between the immigrants of the past coming to this country with permission, who had to either sink or swim, and the hordes of illegal aliens today, primarily being supported by taxpayers. Not to mention, stealing identities.
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Old 07-24-2012, 10:11 AM
 
Location: Maryland
15,179 posts, read 15,809,199 times
Reputation: 3028
Quote:
Originally Posted by IBMMuseum View Post
Or rather had no established opposition to them coming here...

I think a good exercise in logic would be to wonder if they had been told they had to initially sneak in, but could remain unmolested once present, would they still have come?...
Let's deal with the facts, and not "what ifs" or fantasy. They had permission to come, period.
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Old 07-24-2012, 10:21 AM
 
Location: Too far from home.
8,743 posts, read 5,550,867 times
Reputation: 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by IBMMuseum View Post
The ultimate point is how anyone would really know. Don't believe family stories, they are embellished at the very least, pure fiction at the worst. I have found direct relatives that split apart families, had court judgements of fraud leveled against them, perjured themselves in testimony, and committed suicide. More distantly a rapist executed by the state, and violent family feuds.
So, another individual who knows my family. Please don't tell me about my family history because you know absolutely nothing about it. My knowledge doesn't come from embellished/fictional stories handed down. I was young enough to remember my grandfather go off to work - in construction!!! His father - my great grandfather - lived in the home - which was in Brooklyn (do some research about NAI and Brooklyn). I know my family background.

And this has nothing to do with ILLEGAL immigrants. So let's get back on topic.
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Old 07-24-2012, 10:23 AM
 
Location: Too far from home.
8,743 posts, read 5,550,867 times
Reputation: 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
Not to mention, stealing identities.
The government did that when they couldn't pronounce the family name of immigrants that passed through Ellis Island.
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Old 07-24-2012, 10:29 AM
 
Location: Too far from home.
8,743 posts, read 5,550,867 times
Reputation: 2360
Quote:
[IBMMuseum;25314534]
There has also always been a resistance to new immigrants, and whole American policies developed on the stereotypes of another group of people...
WRONG!!! Illegal immigrants are not "new immigrants".

Quote:
When I see deception and other motivations trying to unfairly prove a point, I know that it distracts and detracts from the debate. Most of the time I will even quickly scan through an opposing comment because I know the author has no value to what they are saying, and it is not worthy of a response.

Others that want to ignore or avoid my posts because I irritate them, well that is fine too...
So you don't distract or detract from a debate everytime you use your wife and stepsons as an example to justify illegal immigration? Good to know that opposing comments are written by people who have no value to what they say, but apparently you think what you post does have value. How does that work?
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Old 07-24-2012, 10:54 AM
 
Location: Jacurutu
5,302 posts, read 4,010,077 times
Reputation: 601
Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
Let's deal with the facts, and not "what ifs" or fantasy. They had permission to come, period.
Historically, no. Immigration didn't have any structure to it for the majority of time the United States had immigrants coming here. And for someone that relates the borders as "wide-open" today, there would be nothing stopping someone that skirted the administration of new arrivals, and simply set up house where they wanted.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
Did they have access to welfare, WIC, subsidized housing, maternity care, organ transplants, kidney dialysis, or food stamps -- all borne by U.S. taxpayers? There's a huge difference between the immigrants of the past coming to this country with permission, who had to either sink or swim, and the hordes of illegal aliens today, primarily being supported by taxpayers. Not to mention, stealing identities.
When taken at base motivation, European immigrants in the past came for exactly the same reason as illegal aliens do today. I can't address your wild speculation when it is without reliably sourced data. When your view of history talks about "permission" for immigrants that came at times and paths that were not screened, we would be unable to reach any agreement to this discussion anyway.
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Old 07-24-2012, 11:03 AM
 
Location: SW Missouri
15,527 posts, read 29,233,815 times
Reputation: 21263
Quote:
Originally Posted by softblueyz View Post
What I don't get is that they love their country so much, why don't they fight for it? Why don't they unite and rebel against the corrupt government and the cartels? They sure as heck know how to pick a fight in the US with their demands. Using the very civil rights that Americans have died defending.

People have died and will continue to die in other countries fighting the same thing that exists in Mexico - a corrupt government, poverty, jobs, some under military rule. Why do Mexicans run instead of staying and fighting for their country?
This is why....

"Gun politics in Mexico have resulted in some of the strictest gun laws in the world."

Read full article here....Gun politics in Mexico - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

20yrsinbranson
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