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Old 07-24-2012, 07:26 PM
 
31,500 posts, read 14,573,470 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IBMMuseum View Post
If it was able to be checked. There were Captains, in particular during the times where they had to pay a "head tax" for each immigrant, that would make a slight detour to the Jersey shore (any modern puns unintended) to offload before making port. Unless there are identifiable processing records for Castle Gardens / Ellis Island / Angel Island (made all the much harder by fires at those facilities), there is not any sort of proof that a specific ancestor came "legally".

I've been able to locate passenger lists containing several of my ancestors and their relatives, but not one landing or immigration processing record for any of them, and that is with years of study...
Am I correct in assuming that where you are going with this is that if there is some doubt as to how our ancestors arrived here that we have no right to object to illegal immigration today? I didn't know I was responsible for my ancestor's actions and that it should have some bearing on how I view illegal immigration today. Puzzling to say the least.
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Old 07-24-2012, 07:40 PM
 
Location: Here
10,833 posts, read 11,570,071 times
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15 dead now.
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Old 07-24-2012, 08:20 PM
 
Location: California
2,477 posts, read 1,712,131 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IBMMuseum View Post
If it was able to be checked. There were Captains, in particular during the times where they had to pay a "head tax" for each immigrant, that would make a slight detour to the Jersey shore (any modern puns unintended) to offload before making port. Unless there are identifiable processing records for Castle Gardens / Ellis Island / Angel Island (made all the much harder by fires at those facilities), there is not any sort of proof that a specific ancestor came "legally".

I've been able to locate passenger lists containing several of my ancestors and their relatives, but not one landing or immigration processing record for any of them, and that is with years of study...
By the same token there is no proof that they came illegally either as your point attempts to make, simply hearsay. I would like to read something of this, if it is documented.

By the way, the link was your link (paragraph 2), not Benicars http://www.city-data.com/forum/25318410-post56.html
Quote:
In reality, passenger lists were not created at Ellis Island - they were created by the ship's captain or designated representative before the ship departed from its port of origin. Since immigrants would not be accepted into Ellis Island without proper documentation, the shipping companies were very careful to check the immigrant's paperwork (usually completed by a local clerk in the immigrant's homeland) and ensure its accuracy to avoid having to return the immigrant back home at the shipping company's expense.
I'm unaware if there are identifiable processing records for Castle Gardens / Ellis Island / Angel Island since your own link says there never was to begin with. That those ports used the ship logs to verify immigrants.

You seem to be attempting to pull a rabbit out of a hat.

Last edited by Liquid Reigns; 07-24-2012 at 08:57 PM..
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Old 07-24-2012, 08:43 PM
 
Location: OCEAN BREEZES AND VIEWS SAN CLEMENTE
19,899 posts, read 15,291,186 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by softblueyz View Post
And you know that how?



So, if I understand you, this country was not built by immigrants. Then who exactly did build it? Personally I don't care what you believe or don't believe.



The Irish helped the Irish, the Italians helped the Italians, the Germans helped the Germans, and so forth. First thing immigrants did was to learn English. Alot of help usually came in the form of a loan shark. You certainly know the history of this country.
That is exactly right. When my Grand Parents, came to this Country, From Italy, do you think it was easy. Do you think Americans back then, were easy on them. No way. They went thru hell and high water.

None of that mattered, they were going to become Legal Americans, no matter how long and hard it took. But i will tell you this, maybe they spoke broken english, but by golly, they learned the English Language. My Grandmother when alive, told me, that was very important to them. To learn English, because they were now Americans, and broken english till the day she died, but she spoke english as did my Grandfather.

They did not sit around and feel sorry for themselves either. They found jobs, and back in the day, you did really good at your job, you were promoted. Promoted until you worked your way up the ladder, it was not unusual for my Grandparents, to work more then one job at a time. My grandpa worked his way up the ladder, and passed those work ethics, to my Dad, where we learned his children about hard work, and not expecting anything from anyone. My Father was able to send his Children to college, and my children repeated the process.
Although i had a pretty decent upbringing, and always lived in beautiful homes, nothing was given to my family on that silver platter, there was none. A lot of sacrifices, that paid off.

I had a pretty decent up-bringing because of the work ethics my GrandParents instilled in their children, and were passed on to each of my Dad's children.

I loathe lazy people, people who make excuses for what they don't have, people who makes excuses because of the rich. And i know plenty of lazy people out there, who expect to be given things they think they are owed, i hate that with a passion, no reason to be lazy, unless you lost a job. Good luck under this administration finding another job.

Should not be any easier for those illegals coming across our borders illegaly, as those who found the will and determination, to come here legally and had pride in doing so.
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Old 07-24-2012, 08:57 PM
 
20,611 posts, read 12,286,582 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oldglory View Post
Am I correct in assuming that where you are going with this is that if there is some doubt as to how our ancestors arrived here that we have no right to object to illegal immigration today? I didn't know I was responsible for my ancestor's actions and that it should have some bearing on how I view illegal immigration today. Puzzling to say the least.
The past is the past. In 2012 the US has laws to keep out illegal aliens tho the DC types don't care. Mexica can't talk cause they are nasty to any illegal alien they catch there.
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Old 07-24-2012, 09:53 PM
 
Location: Maryland
15,179 posts, read 15,816,809 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IBMMuseum View Post
As said previously, all of my lines entered before Ellis Island opened (which isn't all that unusual genealogically), the last in 1887. Castle Garden Immigration Depot preceded Ellis Island, but ships didn't necessarily all land in New York harbor. There is even notable SCOTUS precedent to support SB1070 in the realization that New York state had to implement their own regulation on immigrants when the Federal government was failing to enforce any standards.

Organizations were founded to help immigrants purely on the basis of nationality ("The German Society of New York" and "The Irish Emigrant Society of New York", for examples), in comparison to the current complaints. I stopped reviewing Ellis Island information as my genealogical lines were mapped out, but I am at least aware of its years of operation and methods. To me it is largely used as a misnomer, and potentially suspect when someone generically says all of their ancestors came through there.

This forum has a common theme of thinking only on terms of "sneaking in". Some European countries of that era had laws against their people emigrating, leaving without the permission of their homeland's government. So maybe not necessarily "sneaking in" to the United States, but "sneaking out" of Europe to avoid their obligations or debts.

That puts a crimp in the statement that an immigrant's transit was lawful in its entirety...
We are not discussing you or your genealogy. Moreover, no one implied that ALL immigrants entered through Ellis Island. There were several ports of entry, Ellis Island being the most active. Nor are we discussing State's rights, or Federal standards.

The fact remains, regardless of what requirements were or were not in place in the past, we now have immigration laws. Despite their needs or wants, no one has the right to enter this country without going through legal channels. Nor does anyone have the right to take advantage of a government-issued visa, by deliberately failing to comply with the terms of their agreement.

You have put a "crimp" in nothing. You have, once again, shown that you believe this country does not have the right to determine who may or may not enter, primarily due to your affinity for the largest group who choose to enter illegally.

As tragic as this story is, had they obeyed our laws, they would not have been involved in this fatal crash.
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Old 07-24-2012, 11:51 PM
 
Location: Jacurutu
5,302 posts, read 4,011,547 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oldglory View Post
Am I correct in assuming that where you are going with this is that if there is some doubt as to how our ancestors arrived here that we have no right to object to illegal immigration today? I didn't know I was responsible for my ancestor's actions and that it should have some bearing on how I view illegal immigration today. Puzzling to say the least.
I'm just saying it is an interesting contrast for people to feel 100% certain that their ancestors followed every little nuance of law (while obviously being related to a royal line that married an "Indian Princess"), and are also certain that Hispanic woman in front of them at the grocery store with four kids is an illegal on welfare. Those that call the border "wide-open" and unfettered today, but saying every way in was checked over a hundred years ago. That corruption drives the modern marketplace and politics, but an immense industry of passenger lines ferrying people to the United States were somehow immune to it.

"They shouldn't have been here, but the genealogy that led to my presence is above reproach."...
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Old 07-25-2012, 12:09 AM
 
Location: Mexifornia
913 posts, read 735,854 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by softblueyz View Post
23 "suspected" illegals crammed into one pick up truck. Highly unlikely they were citizens heading to a family picnic.
Cue benny hill theme


The Benny Hill Show Theme Tune - YouTube
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Old 07-25-2012, 12:38 AM
 
Location: Phoenix
2,075 posts, read 1,774,369 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IBMMuseum View Post
I'm just saying it is an interesting contrast for people to feel 100% certain that their ancestors followed every little nuance of law (while obviously being related to a royal line that married an "Indian Princess"), and are also certain that Hispanic woman in front of them at the grocery store with four kids is an illegal on welfare. Those that call the border "wide-open" and unfettered today, but saying every way in was checked over a hundred years ago. That corruption drives the modern marketplace and politics, but an immense industry of passenger lines ferrying people to the United States were somehow immune to it.

"They shouldn't have been here, but the genealogy that led to my presence is above reproach."...
Back to the original OP here, there is virtually no way this crash could have been averted. If the vehicle was
going over 40 mph, the mass+the weight of 21 people, would make it impossibe (the pick up truck ) to control. the extra weight along with the higher center center of gravity made it a roll-over looking for a place to happen.

Illegal or not, You should be smart enough to stay out of something like that. It's called "common Sence"
a god gave it to everyone. You would think a lesson could be learned here.
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Old 07-25-2012, 12:47 AM
 
Location: Jacurutu
5,302 posts, read 4,011,547 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
We are not discussing you or your genealogy. Moreover, no one implied that ALL immigrants entered through Ellis Island. There were several ports of entry, Ellis Island being the most active. Nor are we discussing State's rights, or Federal standards...
Other said their ancestors entered "legally" or with "PERMISSION", I said I wasn't so sure of that statement. I'm implying that there may not have even been a facility that many immigrants would have had to go through. History is an interesting teacher, when you hear about a state over 150 years ago that feels Federal immigration regulations were not being enforced, and tried to fill that void themselves.

"Fate, it seems, is not without a sense of irony."...
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