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Old 07-27-2012, 05:03 AM
 
33,146 posts, read 39,115,002 times
Reputation: 28508

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Packard fan View Post
50 million? Can you post up a link proving that? I've read more like 10 or 11 M illegal aliens in the US. Word has it they're LEAVING the US so it may now be under 10 M in 2012.
I'm just being a bit sarcastic and just parroting what some righties are saying in previous topics on the illegal immigration issue, i agree with you Illegals? 10 million tops.
I started this topic a while ago asking how many illegals there actually here..
How many illegals?

 
Old 07-27-2012, 05:38 AM
 
1,922 posts, read 1,439,986 times
Reputation: 794
Quote:
Originally Posted by IBMMuseum View Post
Someone doesn't understand the structure of a "Straw Man" argument...



But your comparison of their stance to whether they would defend foreign nationals renting an apartment every four years to vote in "presidential elections" is very much in the form of a Straw Man argument...

Let me show you, even when putting it as a question:

I prompt you on what sort of weather is ideal. You reply "I like clear, sunny days". My response is "So because it doesn't rain on clear, sunny days, you are fine with the famine and drought that brings?".
Is that not a possibility if there are open borders?
 
Old 07-27-2012, 07:12 AM
 
Location: Maryland
15,179 posts, read 15,819,795 times
Reputation: 3028
Without biometrics, illegals will continue to produce quality fake documents capable of fooling even the most experienced HR department. They will also continue to pass E-Verify by using a valid SSN and the owner's name. Clearly, there is nothing they won't do to remain in this country, as evidenced by the recent reports of having their fingerprints surgically removed. But, they certainly can't fake DNA, or produce "new" fingerprints.

So, my immigration law would include biometrics, and no one could be employed without having their ID verified. We would also need to have adequate staffing to check current employees to ensure no one without legal authorization to work is employed. Every industry known to employ illegals, such as, landscapers, construction, hospitality, agriculture, and restaurants would be subjected to thorough audits to ensure all taxes and insurance are being paid for every employee, and their recordkeeping is in compliance with applicable laws.

Any employer found guilty of employing illegals, either knowingly or unknowingly, would face a minimum fine of $20M plus $100k per illegal employee, 10 years in prison without the possibility of parole, forfeiture of all ill-gotten assets, revocation of business license, and in cases of flagrant violations, closure of business. The risk of employing illegal aliens must exceed the benefit.

Sanctuary cities, counties, and states would be fined a minimum of $500M, and forfeit all federal funds for a period of 5-15 years depending on the level of aiding and abetting.

A legal presence would be required to rent or purchase real property. Any landlord, bank, or mortgage company violating this law would face stiff penalties, determined by their number of violations, but not less than $10 million.

A legal presence would also be required to rent or purchase a car. Rental agencies or car dealerships found guilty of violating the law would face stiff penalties, including fines, revocation of business license, and in cases of flagrant violations, forfeiture of business.

I would rescind Plyler v Doe. A legal presence would be required to attend our public schools. Tax-funded school meals would be restricted to citizens. Non-citizens would be required to pay tuition to enroll their children in our public schools. They would also be required to pay for ESL classes for their children.

Illegal aliens and all non-citizens would be classified the same as diplomats and their staff for purposes of Birthright Citizenship, realizing they could hold no allegiance to this country as defined by the U.S. Oath of Allegiance. Therefore, their children born on U.S. soil would not be conferred U.S. citizenship. In other words, unless at least one parent is a U.S. citizen, their children would not be eligible.

Quote:
Oath

"I hereby declare, on oath, that I absolutely and entirely renounce and abjure all allegiance and fidelity to any foreign prince, potentate, state or sovereignty, of whom or which I have heretofore been a subject or citizen; that I will support and defend the Constitution and laws of the United States of America against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I will bear arms on behalf of the United States when required by the law; that I will perform noncombatant service in the armed forces of the United States when required by the law; that I will perform work of national importance under civilian direction when required by the law; and that I take this obligation freely without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; so help me God."
Illegal aliens would be eligible for life-saving emergency medical treatment only, unless they are prepared to pay in advance for all services rendered. LPRs would also be excluded from tax-funded medical treatment, unless they can prove they have paid enough taxes to cover the costs. In other words, tax-funded medical benefits and services would be reserved for U.S. citizens. Others must pay.

Those determined to be in this country in violation of our laws would be immediately detained, and deported within 72 hours. If they return after deportation, their country of origin will forfeit aid in the amount equal to the costs to incarcerate the violator for a period of 10 years in a federal facility.

This may sound harsh, but illegals have mocked our laws and abused taxpayers long enough. It's time to get serious, and send a message to the world that if you enter the U.S. illegally, you will not be accommodated, your children will not be conferred U.S. citizenship, and you will be summarily deported if caught. If you choose to return after deportation, you will serve a 10-year prison sentence, no exceptions. It's time to take off the gloves, and stop encouraging illegal immigration.
 
Old 07-27-2012, 09:04 AM
 
Location: California
2,477 posts, read 1,713,282 times
Reputation: 299
Quote:
Originally Posted by IBMMuseum View Post
You do realize that even illegal alien + illegal alien doesn't "procreate" an illegal alien in the United States?
At best, they may procreate a US National (we know that the procreation does create a National of the parents home nation and if they were to register the birth of the child with their consul then that child could also be a citizen of the parents home nation), but since there is no court case in direct response to the question, only DoS can determine if one is a citizen or national or neither.
 
Old 07-27-2012, 09:45 AM
 
Location: Jacurutu
5,302 posts, read 4,013,920 times
Reputation: 601
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg_IA View Post
Is that not a possibility if there are open borders?
Foreign Nationals voting in "Presidential" (as opposed to also including other candidates) elections if they are only renting an apartment every four years? On its own, no (and it has the same potential to happen without "open borders"). If that becomes the discussion there is the parallel sub-forum of "Elections".

The largest aspect in relation to immigration enforcement is the hyperbole, including our borders as currently being "wide-open". I have experience crossing "the border", and I will be more confident in that observation than someone away from the border region hearing about it second-hand. In reality, our border with Canada (and how their citizens can transit back and forth to the United States with relative ease) are more "open" than elsewhere.

To phrase it as a Straw Man in the form of a question:

"What, you are strangely not as worried about a Canadian voting in our "Presidential" elections (because they are quite able to rent an apartment every four years) as much as you are worried about a Mexican voting in them?"

You provided what policy you would like to see, but I didn't see it mention anything about family-based immigration. Being two-thirds of all current immigration, would you prefer to strike that to a more employment-based structure? Consider all of the posts on the topic so far, in particular to the others I have responded to.
 
Old 07-27-2012, 09:52 AM
 
Location: Jacurutu
5,302 posts, read 4,013,920 times
Reputation: 601
Quote:
Originally Posted by Liquid Reigns View Post
At best, they may procreate a US National...
And a U.S. National is not an illegal alien...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Liquid Reigns View Post
...(we know that the procreation does create a National of the parents home nation and if they were to register the birth of the child with their consul then that child could also be a citizen of the parents home nation)...
Not true of every country, and especially Mexico (there was a recent topic that specifically addressed this, and a counter article I offered for a girl born of U.S. citizen parents in Mexico that did not derive automatic citizenship here)...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Liquid Reigns View Post
...but since there is no court case in direct response to the question, only DoS can determine if one is a citizen or national or neither.
And you are left hanging in the wind for an argument to support that stance...
 
Old 07-27-2012, 12:14 PM
 
Location: California
2,477 posts, read 1,713,282 times
Reputation: 299
Quote:
Originally Posted by IBMMuseum View Post
And a U.S. National is not an illegal alien...



Not true of every country, and especially Mexico (there was a recent topic that specifically addressed this, and a counter article I offered for a girl born of U.S. citizen parents in Mexico that did not derive automatic citizenship here)...



And you are left hanging in the wind for an argument to support that stance...
But we are unsure they are even US Nationals, why else the at best and may be?

All persons born abroad must have there documents ran through the nationals/citizens consul in the country of birth and then they may become citizens as determined by the citizens home govt, otherwise they will be nothing more than Nationals of the parents home nation.

Hanging in the wind? You never cease to amaze... You seem to know how to go through and file paperwork to immigrate here, but beyond that, your claims are iffy at best since you tend to read into things so much.
 
Old 07-27-2012, 01:38 PM
 
Location: SW Kansas
1,787 posts, read 3,347,639 times
Reputation: 1401
I don't have a problem with the current immigration policy. It just needs to be enforced.

There is a reason we have immigration quotas - to keep a balance and not show favortism. There is a reason immigrants need to be health screened - to protect Americans from 3rd world diseases. Immigrants are supposed to be "sponsored" and proficient in English - to make their assimilation process as easy as possible.

If I could change anything I would make the legal process more timely. With today's technology immigration applications should be processed much more efficiently than they are. An immigrant should not have to hire an immigration lawyer to fill out the forms for pete's sake.
 
Old 07-27-2012, 01:57 PM
 
Location: SW Kansas
1,787 posts, read 3,347,639 times
Reputation: 1401
This needed quoted! Very good post!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
Without biometrics, illegals will continue to produce quality fake documents capable of fooling even the most experienced HR department. They will also continue to pass E-Verify by using a valid SSN and the owner's name. Clearly, there is nothing they won't do to remain in this country, as evidenced by the recent reports of having their fingerprints surgically removed. But, they certainly can't fake DNA, or produce "new" fingerprints.

So, my immigration law would include biometrics, and no one could be employed without having their ID verified. We would also need to have adequate staffing to check current employees to ensure no one without legal authorization to work is employed. Every industry known to employ illegals, such as, landscapers, construction, hospitality, agriculture, and restaurants would be subjected to thorough audits to ensure all taxes and insurance are being paid for every employee, and their recordkeeping is in compliance with applicable laws.

Any employer found guilty of employing illegals, either knowingly or unknowingly, would face a minimum fine of $20M plus $100k per illegal employee, 10 years in prison without the possibility of parole, forfeiture of all ill-gotten assets, revocation of business license, and in cases of flagrant violations, closure of business. The risk of employing illegal aliens must exceed the benefit.

Sanctuary cities, counties, and states would be fined a minimum of $500M, and forfeit all federal funds for a period of 5-15 years depending on the level of aiding and abetting.

A legal presence would be required to rent or purchase real property. Any landlord, bank, or mortgage company violating this law would face stiff penalties, determined by their number of violations, but not less than $10 million.

A legal presence would also be required to rent or purchase a car. Rental agencies or car dealerships found guilty of violating the law would face stiff penalties, including fines, revocation of business license, and in cases of flagrant violations, forfeiture of business.

I would rescind Plyler v Doe. A legal presence would be required to attend our public schools. Tax-funded school meals would be restricted to citizens. Non-citizens would be required to pay tuition to enroll their children in our public schools. They would also be required to pay for ESL classes for their children.

Illegal aliens and all non-citizens would be classified the same as diplomats and their staff for purposes of Birthright Citizenship, realizing they could hold no allegiance to this country as defined by the U.S. Oath of Allegiance. Therefore, their children born on U.S. soil would not be conferred U.S. citizenship. In other words, unless at least one parent is a U.S. citizen, their children would not be eligible.



Illegal aliens would be eligible for life-saving emergency medical treatment only, unless they are prepared to pay in advance for all services rendered. LPRs would also be excluded from tax-funded medical treatment, unless they can prove they have paid enough taxes to cover the costs. In other words, tax-funded medical benefits and services would be reserved for U.S. citizens. Others must pay.

Those determined to be in this country in violation of our laws would be immediately detained, and deported within 72 hours. If they return after deportation, their country of origin will forfeit aid in the amount equal to the costs to incarcerate the violator for a period of 10 years in a federal facility.

This may sound harsh, but illegals have mocked our laws and abused taxpayers long enough. It's time to get serious, and send a message to the world that if you enter the U.S. illegally, you will not be accommodated, your children will not be conferred U.S. citizenship, and you will be summarily deported if caught. If you choose to return after deportation, you will serve a 10-year prison sentence, no exceptions. It's time to take off the gloves, and stop encouraging illegal immigration.
 
Old 07-27-2012, 03:04 PM
 
1,580 posts, read 1,423,402 times
Reputation: 748
Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
Without biometrics, illegals will continue to produce quality fake documents capable of fooling even the most experienced HR department. They will also continue to pass E-Verify by using a valid SSN and the owner's name. Clearly, there is nothing they won't do to remain in this country, as evidenced by the recent reports of having their fingerprints surgically removed. But, they certainly can't fake DNA, or produce "new" fingerprints.

So, my immigration law would include biometrics, and no one could be employed without having their ID verified. We would also need to have adequate staffing to check current employees to ensure no one without legal authorization to work is employed. Every industry known to employ illegals, such as, landscapers, construction, hospitality, agriculture, and restaurants would be subjected to thorough audits to ensure all taxes and insurance are being paid for every employee, and their recordkeeping is in compliance with applicable laws.

Any employer found guilty of employing illegals, either knowingly or unknowingly, would face a minimum fine of $20M plus $100k per illegal employee, 10 years in prison without the possibility of parole, forfeiture of all ill-gotten assets, revocation of business license, and in cases of flagrant violations, closure of business. The risk of employing illegal aliens must exceed the benefit.

Sanctuary cities, counties, and states would be fined a minimum of $500M, and forfeit all federal funds for a period of 5-15 years depending on the level of aiding and abetting.

A legal presence would be required to rent or purchase real property. Any landlord, bank, or mortgage company violating this law would face stiff penalties, determined by their number of violations, but not less than $10 million.

A legal presence would also be required to rent or purchase a car. Rental agencies or car dealerships found guilty of violating the law would face stiff penalties, including fines, revocation of business license, and in cases of flagrant violations, forfeiture of business.

I would rescind Plyler v Doe. A legal presence would be required to attend our public schools. Tax-funded school meals would be restricted to citizens. Non-citizens would be required to pay tuition to enroll their children in our public schools. They would also be required to pay for ESL classes for their children.

Illegal aliens and all non-citizens would be classified the same as diplomats and their staff for purposes of Birthright Citizenship, realizing they could hold no allegiance to this country as defined by the U.S. Oath of Allegiance. Therefore, their children born on U.S. soil would not be conferred U.S. citizenship. In other words, unless at least one parent is a U.S. citizen, their children would not be eligible.



Illegal aliens would be eligible for life-saving emergency medical treatment only, unless they are prepared to pay in advance for all services rendered. LPRs would also be excluded from tax-funded medical treatment, unless they can prove they have paid enough taxes to cover the costs. In other words, tax-funded medical benefits and services would be reserved for U.S. citizens. Others must pay.

Those determined to be in this country in violation of our laws would be immediately detained, and deported within 72 hours. If they return after deportation, their country of origin will forfeit aid in the amount equal to the costs to incarcerate the violator for a period of 10 years in a federal facility.

This may sound harsh, but illegals have mocked our laws and abused taxpayers long enough. It's time to get serious, and send a message to the world that if you enter the U.S. illegally, you will not be accommodated, your children will not be conferred U.S. citizenship, and you will be summarily deported if caught. If you choose to return after deportation, you will serve a 10-year prison sentence, no exceptions. It's time to take off the gloves, and stop encouraging illegal immigration.
I am in total agreement with everything that you have stated. Nothing short of the aforementioned will get our house back in order. It's way past time to reinstitute the original purpose for immigration, clean house and blow out the lamp. Excellent post
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