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Old 07-29-2012, 02:33 PM
 
153 posts, read 108,927 times
Reputation: 37

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Quote:
Well I'm going to post anyway. I disagree with the way you've interpreted the numbers. You're discounting the affect illegal aliens have on taxes -- in effect, tax payers fund their lives, as illegals cannot pay their own way, which is why California is in such a poor financial state. The net result is poverty -- by your logic the 50's, 60's, and 70's would see regions such as California in a poorer fiscal condition than they are today.
You didn't read my post did you? I ended by saying, "I intend to include a second post discussing the issue of taxation. As I've noted several times, it is in issues of taxation and the welfare state that the problems of illegal immigration occur." I didn't discount taxation, I made it explicit it was important to consider and would deal in a second post when I wasn't so sleepy.

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I don't understand the thinking that the US NEEDS illlegals. The US may need immigrants - legal immigrants, not not illegals. Why do you think that the US economy would collapse without illegals? I would rather find out how the US would manage without illegals, and where there is a need for immigrants, then the US can do what is needed.
Economics makes little, if any dinstinction, between illegal and legal migration. A labour increase is a labour increase. The reason we have so many black market migrants is because of the high artificial costs of migrating. I'll deal this in a third non-reply post.

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What you are not grasping is that illegals are not just farm workers. They have pushed themselves into what were considered blue collar jobs, jobs that were held by middle class citizens - construction, plumbing, electrical, mechanical, manufacturing, etc. Illegals drove down the wages of those jobs. Some of these off the book jobs can pay as much as 1/2 above minimum wage.
I'm not relying on illegals being farm workers. The movement of the supply and demand curves would have been the same even if all illegals were in middle class jobs.

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To the OP: it's time to put your opinions to the test by deporting any illegal alien when caught. Maybe we'll be hurting, maybe not.
Economics is a value free science. We will see a decrease of the number of jobs in the theoretical chance that all illegals were deported, that much isn't an opinion.

My opinion on the matter is that this decrease of jobs would be bad.

Quote:
Actually, that isn't even necessary. All you have to do is compare how things were prior to this massive wave of illegal immigrants to see what the job situation was and how businesses and our country were prospering. We had some down times due to recessions but other than that......
Significant illegal immigration in the US didn't occur until WW2 when the migration process was raised due to war time and then kept in peace time. Economic conditions, tax rates alone, have changed considerably since that time. Trying to compare the two eras in this manner would be simply a bad application of economic theory.

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Real wages have been stagnated since the 70's.
Cringing, cringing. Cringed.

Look around your house, then look at photos of people in the 70s. Our technology alone has improved in the forty something years, and that alone shows how real wages have not stagnated. Alternatively look at all the great food we have now versus what our parents and grandparents had available. We have so many fruits available in supermarkets now even in the worst of climate regions!

It's okay though, this idea of wage stagnation is very prevalent outside academia.

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the rich get richer while the poor get poorer
... Look above. Our quality of life continues to improve every year. The poor are getting richer.

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Minimum wage laws didn't kill your scenario, simple technology costs decreased enough to be cheaper then the employee. The same would eventually hold true with farm mechanization, in fact already has for the most part. Cows are no longer milked by hand, machines do it faster and produce more. Employees decreased, jobs were lost, and product became cheaper. Fuel costs have much more of an effect on product.
Read what you yourself bolded. Are you still studying how to read?

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As technology improved we would have seen the phasing out of these jobs anyway, but it was the minimum wage laws that killed this, and many other jobs prematurely.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Liquid Reigns View Post
On average the cost of 1 year of public school K-12 is between $9K and as much as $12K per student (not counting the ESL classes that many schools must also use to teach foreign children). Property taxes pay for this at the state level. Do you think as renters they pay that much per year or even over the course of their lifetime to cover those costs alone? Are there enough single illegals to make up the difference?
The way that state schools are funded is broken, yes. Again, I've made it very clear my dislike for state welfare programs. Not only do I find there to be no moral grounds for forcing others to support a charity they don't agree with, but you also have situations like the above where education is subsidized by others. As I noted in the second post though, even if these people were citizens or legal migrants, we would still be suffering from their high expenses at the cost of the tax payer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by OP
I ask that no one post yet. I intend to include a second post discussing the issue of taxation. As I've noted several times, it is in issues of taxation and the welfare state that the problems of illegal immigration occur. I'd include this subject with the above, but I'm sleepy at the moment. Will post first thing in the morning.
In the beginning of this very thread I made it clear that I thought taxation where the problem laid. Where is our disagreement? We both presumably agree that subsidizing people is wrong, right?

The only disagreement I see is that I point out that it isn't only legal migrants and citizens that end up subsidizing these children. We also have single or childless illegals who pay property taxes. I see no fault in criticizing the existence of those illegals (or citizens!) who benefit at the expense of tax payers. I do however find fault in pretending that all illegals are inherently net tax recipients. You can be both a tax payer and an illegal, they aren't mutually exclusive.

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Payroll taxes? You mean payroll withholdings, they don't become taxes until the proper forms are filed and your tax bracket is discerned. At which point, based on tax credits one can end up having a negative tax rate to include refunded SS and Medicare deductions if one is an alien or non-immigrant to include an illegal. Illegals file taxes using ITIN numbers, at which they have actually received back $4.2B more than has been withheld. All this has been discussed in here already with links, do a search. Some may even be able to go back home and use totalization agreements to obtain US SS after having worked here illegally.
To be honest I don't bear much weight in numbers regarding illegals. The nature of the demographic simply makes it too difficult to properly get numbers. Even looking at ITIN numbers don't give us a proper picture since many illegals also use non-existent SSN numbers, or borrow the numbers of relatives or friends (and of course others do commit identify fraud). I've seen reports saying both that illegals as a whole as net tax payers, and other reports saying they're net tax recipients. I'd be delighted to see what the true numbers were, but I've yet to see any report that I'm very confident in.

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If all illegals were removed to include their children (which we agree where you stated: I disagree that the very act of birth makes one an American) it would lessen the burdens they place upon the US to include possibly substantially the lowering in cost of public expenses, i.e. school to mention the largest right off the top.
I don't support birthright citizenship, yes. I also would support reintroducing a property requirement to vote.

I do however support the free movement of people, and I believe there is a distinction to be made between whether someone is an American or a US Citizen. Whether you are an American depends on your cultural inclinations and basic values. This is not mutually inclusive with being legally allowed to vote and hold office.

This is better dealt with in another thread since I hope to make this explicitly for the pure economics of the issue.

Last edited by Frank_Knight; 07-29-2012 at 02:34 PM.. Reason: Typo
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Old 07-29-2012, 06:20 PM
 
Location: California
2,477 posts, read 1,717,889 times
Reputation: 299
Real wages have barely kept up with inflation, sure technology has gotten better and maybe the quality of life has changed due to technology, but if real wages don't increase faster then inflation, you have stagnated real wages.
Quote:
average real wages for private non-farm workers in the USA in 2010 are still 16% below the levels they were in 1972 as shown in Figure 1. If average real wages in the US had maintained their pre-float growth rate, they would be 70% higher than they are today.
You seem to be basing the poor getting richer simply due to technology getting cheaper and then correlating it to a better quality of life.

Questioning my ability to read? you may wish to understand the point I made first. You're claiming it was minimum wage jobs that killed the elevator workers position. I understand that, please don't attempt patronization as if you hold the only right (or wrong) answers. My point was simple, technology phased out the job, not minimum wage law. All your scenarios and your ideals espouse a race to the bottom in wages, at which inflation would have to be reduced at twice the rate.

I don't see state funding of schools as being broken, I see the waste and abuse of the system and all the additional costs that are created by the Feds to mandate the State do certain things, increased bureaucracy. To claim we would still need ESL classes for legal immigrants or for citizens is a far stretch. Citizens and legal immigrants already speak English, the burden would be greatly decreased and minimized vs what it is now. These 2 things together would lower property taxes on the avg citizen/resident.

My point about taxes was that overall, illegals do cost, call it stereotyping if you will, but as a group they don't cover their costs. Sure there maybe 1 in 500 that may break the mold, so what, he/she is still an illegal. Nobody has pretended that all illegals are net tax recipients. As for the ITIN numbers, IRS narrowed down their useage and showed that illegals using the ITIN were taking child tax credits totaling more than $4.2B in net taxes paid out to. This is just those that use the ITIN, doesn't begin to cover the ones you claim with fraudulent SS numbers or the ever popular 000-00-0000 number.

The "free movement of people", globalistic idea erasing borders and treating persons like modern day slaves in a race to see who is willing to work for next to nothing. The Libertarian ideal is nothing more than perverted Classic Liberal ideology. The distinction of citizen vs worker is beneficial to the citizens how exactly? Libertarians think it will eventually lower the costs of product, when all it will really do is separate the classes of persons even further, I'll eat steak while you eat hot dog. Its that me, me, me mentality, he who has the riches dictates.
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Old 07-30-2012, 07:09 PM
 
Location: Maryland
15,179 posts, read 15,848,271 times
Reputation: 3028
Frank, after reading your comments, particularly on this thread, I couldn't help but notice the striking similarity between your arguments and those of a former member Rockmadinejad. In fact, he emphasized the same aspects of economic principles. He even shares your belief that the absence of illegals would actually reduce the number of jobs, and that no job "belongs" to a citizen. While I disagree with you, I certainly commend you for your time and effort, especially the graphs. Anyway, I thought you might be interested in reading a few of his posts.

Does it benefit Michigan to ban low-skill workers from Ohio?

Immigrants here illegally taking jobs from citizens
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Old 07-30-2012, 07:48 PM
 
3,493 posts, read 2,394,070 times
Reputation: 2345
Most illegals are low skilled. They can literally only survive because here because we have a welfare state to support them. Without that support they would find it hard to even feed themselves. Americans are under no legal or moral obligation to allow them to come here, let alone subsidize their decision to do so. Any benefits they bring are more than wiped out by what they steal.
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Old 07-30-2012, 07:55 PM
 
Location: OCEAN BREEZES AND VIEWS SAN CLEMENTE
19,899 posts, read 15,353,945 times
Reputation: 6451
Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
Frank, after reading your comments, particularly on this thread, I couldn't help but notice the striking similarity between your arguments and those of a former member Rockmadinejad. In fact, he emphasized the same aspects of economic principles. He even shares your belief that the absence of illegals would actually reduce the number of jobs, and that no job "belongs" to a citizen. While I disagree with you, I certainly commend you for your time and effort, especially the graphs. Anyway, I thought you might be interested in reading a few of his posts.

Does it benefit Michigan to ban low-skill workers from Ohio?

Immigrants here illegally taking jobs from citizens


Good observation Benicar; come to think of it, your so right. Very similar, and the other poster who you mentioned, did use to emphasize the same economic principles.

Small world, isn't it.
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Old 07-30-2012, 09:49 PM
 
Location: Jacurutu
5,302 posts, read 4,025,929 times
Reputation: 601
Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
Frank, after reading your comments, particularly on this thread, I couldn't help but notice the striking similarity between your arguments and those of a former member Rockmadinejad. In fact, he emphasized the same aspects of economic principles. He even shares your belief that the absence of illegals would actually reduce the number of jobs, and that no job "belongs" to a citizen. While I disagree with you, I certainly commend you for your time and effort, especially the graphs. Anyway, I thought you might be interested in reading a few of his posts.

Does it benefit Michigan to ban low-skill workers from Ohio?

Immigrants here illegally taking jobs from citizens
But 'Rock' was a whole different stated background...

Unless you want to discuss invented personalities, where I have caught that being done...

If you ultimately want to know, ask Yac, I know it is watched to make sure a new username is not coming from the same IP address as a former member had...
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Old 07-30-2012, 10:27 PM
 
Location: California
2,477 posts, read 1,717,889 times
Reputation: 299
Quote:
Originally Posted by IBMMuseum View Post
But 'Rock' was a whole different stated background...

Unless you want to discuss invented personalities, where I have caught that being done...

If you ultimately want to know, ask Yac, I know it is watched to make sure a new username is not coming from the same IP address as a former member had...
Benicars point was that Franks ideals have already been discussed in here, Rock pretty much had the same theories in regard to open borders and the "free movement of people".
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Old 07-30-2012, 10:33 PM
 
Location: Jacurutu
5,302 posts, read 4,025,929 times
Reputation: 601
Quote:
Originally Posted by Liquid Reigns View Post
Benicars point was that Franks ideals have already been discussed in here, Rock pretty much had the same theories in regard to open borders and the "free movement of people".
Mmm, but strongly alluding that is it is 'Rock' under a new moniker...

Even when I see the same themes/arguments over and over being stated by members here, do I call you alike or complain that certain topics have been multi-posted or zombied back to life?...
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Old 07-30-2012, 10:53 PM
 
Location: California
2,477 posts, read 1,717,889 times
Reputation: 299
Quote:
Originally Posted by IBMMuseum View Post
Mmm, but strongly alluding that is it is 'Rock' under a new moniker...

Even when I see the same themes/arguments over and over being stated by members here, do I call you alike or complain that certain topics have been multi-posted or zombied back to life?...
Here we go reading between the lines...

I know its hard to interpret emotion in a type written comment, but it's not rocket science nor is everything a conspiracy.

I don't see where Benicar was doing anything more then giving Frank some basic reading links of the almost same discussion, maybe the idea was to have Frank argue something new in regards to it, or help him in his arguing to see where some of us others have already responded. Maybe to bring something new to the argument, I mean Frank does seem intelligent enough to possibly do so.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
Frank, after reading your comments, particularly on this thread, I couldn't help but notice the striking similarity between your arguments and those of a former member Rockmadinejad. In fact, he emphasized the same aspects of economic principles. He even shares your belief that the absence of illegals would actually reduce the number of jobs, and that no job "belongs" to a citizen. While I disagree with you, I certainly commend you for your time and effort, especially the graphs. Anyway, I thought you might be interested in reading a few of his posts.
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Old 07-30-2012, 11:25 PM
 
Location: Maryland
15,179 posts, read 15,848,271 times
Reputation: 3028
Quote:
Originally Posted by IBMMuseum View Post
But 'Rock' was a whole different stated background...

Unless you want to discuss invented personalities, where I have caught that being done...

If you ultimately want to know, ask Yac, I know it is watched to make sure a new username is not coming from the same IP address as a former member had...
Perhaps you'd like to quote where I accused Frank of being Rock. The thread topic is economics, which immediately brought to mind Rock's similar arguments. Can't two people hold the same views, and use the same arguments to support their position? I posted the links so Frank can see for himself.

Why are you being so defensive?
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