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Old 08-02-2012, 05:24 PM
 
Location: Too far from home.
8,743 posts, read 5,583,651 times
Reputation: 2360

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank_Knight View Post
I must say I've yet to hear of any illegal who goes to customs and gets their money back. Illegal aliens are tax payers. They're possibly net tax recipients as individuals, but they are just as equally net tax payers.



I've also met many economists who believe that illegals pay far more into the state coffers than they ever receive in benefits. I have seen both arguments in regards to the number crunching, and honestly I don't give weight to either side. The nature of the demographic group simply makes it near impossible to get accurate numbers.



I specified which taxes I was discussing.

They pay sales tax, which funds both states and localities; whether the localities being funded is the city, county, or different region is dependent on where you live.

They pay property tax. Even as renters the inelastic nature of housing makes it so that the burden of property tax falls more or less evenly between them and the property owners. The more elastic the supply of housing is, the greater portion of the tax burden that falls on renters.

They pay payroll taxes if they are employed, even if they are working under another's name. No, I'm not talking about the amount of tax withheld and later reimbursed. I'm talking about employer tax contributions for employees. These are discounted from the would-be wages of workers, and as such an illegal employee bears the burden of lower wages just like anyone else.

They also pay consumption taxes, such as taxes on gasoline or cigarettes. Etc. Etc.

The only major tax that is unclear is income tax. Tax is withheld in their paychecks, but they are also eligible for a partial reimbursement in the end of the year like other tax payers.



Very well. Let's say that there isn't a way for me to prove that illegal aliens, on the whole, pay more taxes than they receive in benefits. Why though is it in fact possible to prove that illegal aliens do receive more in taxes than they receive in benefits? The latter presumes we know what their tax benefits are. Obviously though we don't or we could in fact prove in theory that illegal aliens paid more in taxes than they received.

Or, if you prefer:

A - B = X

A being the amount of money being paid by illegals in taxes.
B being the amount of money receive by illegals in state benefits.
X being whether the amount if positive or negative.

If it's impossible for us to prove that X is a positive, why is it possible to prove it is a negative? Either both possibilities could be the answer, or neither can be answered.



Taxpayers are not only citizens. In fact the burden of tariffs falls on foreign producers, and the USA receives a significant portion of tax money every year through tariffs. Taxpayers needn't ever set foot in the USA! Illegal aliens are tax payers.

And indeed, several students at UCLA are illegal aliens paying tuition.

Now do I believe tax payers should fund this program? No. Never. And I ask that no one presume that I do.

Let us not however fall into this ever prevalent fallacy that illegal aliens are not tax payers. They are.
As mentioned, you use the word "tax payer" in a very broad sense. Not to mention that you seem to think they pay property tax as renters. Responsibility to pay property tax falls to the owner, not the renter. Based on your claim that illegals pay property tax via the property owner, if the owner doesn't pay property tax, would the renter be responsible? The cost of what illegals take is far higher than what they give.

When illegals are living in public housing (available because they have babies born on America soil) where they don't pay rent and all their needs are met by government, how do they help the economy? Based on the numbers that several experts (who have considerably more resources available to them than a student) have provided as to how illegals impact our economy, do you have figures that show otherwise?

Do you really think that all those illegals getting government handouts are going to bounce out and get a job if they get amnesty? I wouldn't be surprised if all the talk about all the jobs that are waiting for illegals, but amnesty is needed to employ them, will change if and when amnesty is passed, to there aren't enough jobs for them (shortage of jobs, lack of skills, uneducated) and that will be government's reason to keep them on the government payroll and they will be very content to remain on the government payroll.
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Old 08-02-2012, 05:32 PM
 
Location: California
2,477 posts, read 1,718,449 times
Reputation: 299
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank_Knight View Post
I've also met many economists who believe that illegals pay far more into the state coffers than they ever receive in benefits. I have seen both arguments in regards to the number crunching, and honestly I don't give weight to either side. The nature of the demographic group simply makes it near impossible to get accurate numbers.

They pay payroll taxes if they are employed, even if they are working under another's name. No, I'm not talking about the amount of tax withheld and later reimbursed. I'm talking about employer tax contributions for employees. These are discounted from the would-be wages of workers, and as such an illegal employee bears the burden of lower wages just like anyone else.
I've read the reports of groups using economists data and spinning it to show that illegals pay far more into the state coffers than they ever receive in benefits (The 2006 Texas Comptroller report was a big claim
Quote:
“The absence of the estimated 1.4 million undocumented immigrants in Texas in fiscal 2005 would have been a loss to our gross state product of $17.7 billion. Undocumented immigrants produced $1.58 billion in state revenues, which exceeded the $1.16 billion in state services they received. However, local governments bore the burden of $1.44 billion in uncompensated health care costs and local law enforcement costs not paid for by the state.
, so was NCLR's claims) they all fail to discount any benefits and costs from those (good) claimed numbers. I agree to an extent that accurate numbers are hard or near impossible, but not in all instances. There are claims out there touting the economic benefits, but when you rad the report and the "fine print" you realize the reports claims are not what the title of the report says. The Comptroller report clearly shows that overall within the state, they cost more 1.58-1.16=.42-1.44=-1.02B (that's negative $1B overall in the state)

Employer contributions are added into the cost of an employee, so what? Whether the illegal bares the burden of lower wages, matters not. The illegal can, at the end of the year when filing his Federal tax forms, receive back all his SS and medicare with-holdings minus the employer contributions (citizens can not), to include claiming all applicable tax credits (the same as every other tax filer). Seems the illegals burden isn't as much as everybody else's.

Last edited by Liquid Reigns; 08-02-2012 at 06:03 PM..
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Old 08-02-2012, 05:35 PM
 
Location: California
2,477 posts, read 1,718,449 times
Reputation: 299
Quote:
Originally Posted by softblueyz View Post
As mentioned, you use the word "tax payer" in a very broad sense. Not to mention that you seem to think they pay property tax as renters. Responsibility to pay property tax falls to the owner, not the renter. Based on your claim that illegals pay property tax via the property owner, if the owner doesn't pay property tax, would the renter be responsible? The cost of what illegals take is far higher than what they give.
Property taxes are usually figured into the rent cost to the renter(s), while this still holds true: Responsibility to pay property tax falls to the owner, not the renter.

Your claims of Section 8 are good as tax exemptions are regularly used by the property owner.
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Old 08-02-2012, 08:07 PM
 
153 posts, read 108,960 times
Reputation: 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by softblueyz View Post
As mentioned, you use the word "tax payer" in a very broad sense. Not to mention that you seem to think they pay property tax as renters. Responsibility to pay property tax falls to the owner, not the renter. Based on your claim that illegals pay property tax via the property owner, if the owner doesn't pay property tax, would the renter be responsible? The cost of what illegals take is far higher than what they give.
How are you calculating how much illegals pay in tax?

And yes, technically the responsibility to pay property tax is on the property owner. However the burden of the tax does not fall exclusively on the property owner. The renter also shares a burden of the tax.

Here is a brief video explaining the concept:



I also elaborate on this issue HERE.

Quote:
When illegals are living in public housing (available because they have babies born on America soil) where they don't pay rent and all their needs are met by government, how do they help the economy? Based on the numbers that several experts (who have considerably more resources available to them than a student) have provided as to how illegals impact our economy, do you have figures that show otherwise?
Are you an expert? Have you intimately worked with an expert? Or do you simply bold the word expert in an appeal to authority?

I'm not claiming that illegals as a whole pay more taxes than they receive. I'm making the point that it's possible and that I have heard arguments on both sides. The burden of proof to provide evidence is on your side, as it is you who is claiming to be sure that illegals pay less in taxes than they receive. I've yet to see any set of numbers, from either side of the debate, that does not ultimately guesstimate.

Quote:
Do you really think that all those illegals getting government handouts are going to bounce out and get a job if they get amnesty? I wouldn't be surprised if all the talk about all the jobs that are waiting for illegals, but amnesty is needed to employ them, will change if and when amnesty is passed, to there aren't enough jobs for them (shortage of jobs, lack of skills, uneducated) and that will be government's reason to keep them on the government payroll and they will be very content to remain on the government payroll.
Okay this paragraph just made me laugh. I thank you for the laugh. You see I find it humorous that there is this prevailing doublethink in the issue of illegal immigration.

Illegals are low skilled and uneducated, as you put them above. Yet in other times they are suddenly all employed in middle income jobs competing with hard working god fearing communist punching Americans.

Illegals are at once all unemployed and living off welfare. Yet at the drop of the hat they're also employed everywhere and taking AMERICAN jobs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Liquid Reigns View Post
I've read the reports of groups using economists data and spinning it to show that illegals pay far more into the state coffers than they ever receive in benefits (The 2006 Texas Comptroller report was a big claim , so was NCLR's claims) they all fail to discount any benefits and costs from those (good) claimed numbers. I agree to an extent that accurate numbers are hard or near impossible, but not in all instances. There are claims out there touting the economic benefits, but when you rad the report and the "fine print" you realize the reports claims are not what the title of the report says. The Comptroller report clearly shows that overall within the state, they cost more 1.58-1.16=.42-1.44=-1.02B (that's negative $1B overall in the state)
Like I said, I've seen reports on both sides and I simply have yet to see anything that seems accurate. I'll grant you that the pro-illegal side fudges numbers for their benefit. So do the anti-illegals fudge the numbers. The inherent political nature of this issue makes it so that even if the information could be calculated, it would be in the interests of the economists and other 'experts' to fudge numbers to get what they wanted.

Quote:
Employer contributions are added into the cost of an employee, so what? Whether the illegal bares the burden of lower wages, matters not. The illegal can, at the end of the year when filing his Federal tax forms, receive back all his SS and medicare with-holdings minus the employer contributions (citizens can not), to include claiming all applicable tax credits (the same as every other tax filer). Seems the illegals burden isn't as much as everybody else's.
An illegal can? I need to talk to my local tax preparation guy. Can I give him your number? I'm sure he'd love to know how to do all of this. I thank you in advance. It's a damn shame I didn't know any of this earlier; I could have bought a new pair of shoes with the rebate!
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Old 08-02-2012, 09:50 PM
 
Location: California
2,477 posts, read 1,718,449 times
Reputation: 299
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank_Knight View Post
Like I said, I've seen reports on both sides and I simply have yet to see anything that seems accurate. I'll grant you that the pro-illegal side fudges numbers for their benefit. So do the anti-illegals fudge the numbers. The inherent political nature of this issue makes it so that even if the information could be calculated, it would be in the interests of the economists and other 'experts' to fudge numbers to get what they wanted.
The headline of the Comptrollers report would have one believe, as was the intent, that illegals are good, but when you read the report, the opposite is true, no numbers were fudged, the Comptroller even attempted to push in the PRO direction (by not counting the US born children of illegals) and still couldn't show or prove that illegals were beneficial. The PRO illegal lobby touted the Comptroller report as some kind of holy grail for some time, many groups came out using it in their PRO spin.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank_Knight View Post
An illegal can? I need to talk to my local tax preparation guy. Can I give him your number? I'm sure he'd love to know how to do all of this. I thank you in advance. It's a damn shame I didn't know any of this earlier; I could have bought a new pair of shoes with the rebate!
Yes, an illegal can, so can non-immigrants, as long as they have pay stubs showing they had the deductions. line 69 of the 1040 tax filing Aliens Employed in the U.S. ? Social Security Taxes
Some can even go back to their home nations and collect SS from the USA through Totalization Agreements. Your intended sarcasm aside.

Last edited by Liquid Reigns; 08-02-2012 at 10:17 PM..
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Old 08-03-2012, 02:28 PM
 
Location: Too far from home.
8,743 posts, read 5,583,651 times
Reputation: 2360
[quote=Frank_Knight;25461543]How are you calculating how much illegals pay in tax?

Quote:
And yes, technically the responsibility to pay property tax is on the property owner. However the burden of the tax does not fall exclusively on the property owner. The renter also shares a burden of the tax.
In many cases that burden is paid by the government when the owner accepts Section 8 and other goverment programs that pay the rent. It is the government that sends them a check for housing to cover their American born child/ren that is used to pay rent that is paying the property tax.

Quote:
Are you an expert? Have you intimately worked with an expert? Or do you simply bold the word expert in an appeal to authority?
I guess highlighting the word "expert" was lost on you. I never claimed to be an expert, but you seem to think you are seeing as how you have all the details to suit your argument. You don't see me trying to convince anyone of anything by using crayons and paper.

Quote:
I'm not claiming that illegals as a whole pay more taxes than they receive. I'm making the point that it's possible and that I have heard arguments on both sides. The burden of proof to provide evidence is on your side, as it is you who is claiming to be sure that illegals pay less in taxes than they receive. I've yet to see any set of numbers, from either side of the debate, that does not ultimately guesstimate.
If it costs over $8,000 a year to educate a child, and an illegal has 2 or 3 children in public school, plus each child is on a food program, do you really think that each family is covering the cost of even one child in tax payment? If each birth that an illegal gives costs $7,500 do you really think that that illegal paid enough tax into the system to cover half the cost? My Federal tax is 5 figures which could cover most of the cost for the education of one child and one birth. When I worked there was also state and city tax from my payroll. I don't get a tax refund, unlike illegals who do file a tax return and because of their low income they basically get all their federal tax back. I guess claiming their phantom children back in Mexico helps. If illegals are paying taxes and getting a refund, exactly how much has one paid into the system, if anything?

If you do look at both sides you would see the proof about illegals and taxes. You would also see the burden they are on the taxpayer. But more than likely you discount what you saw because it would go against your argument as to how beneficial illegals are to the US economy.

No one said that they are ALL unemployed nor that they are ALL employed.

Quote:
Illegals are low skilled and uneducated, as you put them above. Yet in other times they are suddenly all employed in middle income jobs competing with hard working god fearing communist punching Americans.
If they are so skilled and educated, why don't they put those skills to work in their own country?

There will always be a need for immigrants to do the low level jobs such as farming, dishwashers, car washers, etc., jobs that don't require skill or an education and they can have those jobs legally. Illegals are in the blue collar sector and Americans have lost jobs to them. Illegals are not competing with people per se, they are competing with wages, they are driving down wages, which results in Americans losing their jobs to cheap labor.

Quote:
Illegals are at once all unemployed and living off welfare. Yet at the drop of the hat they're also employed everywhere and taking AMERICAN jobs
.

When illegals drive down wages someone is going to pay an illegal $10 an hour with no benefits and lay off the person that he is paying $20 an hour with benefits, and that person is usually an American.

Do you want to tell me that illegals aren't collecting some form of welfare by the mere fact that they have given birth to children in the US? That they pay for their medical care? That illegals that meet the "poverty" level aren't collecting food stamps? That illegals aren't using food pantries to get free food?

You better understand one thing. Amnesty doesn't mean that the red welcome carpet is going to be rolled out for illegals. Citizens will have to bite the bullet and accept it, but it doesn't mean that they have to like it or go along with it. Citizens will be under no obligation to employ them - remember they are not citizens, but will be legal residents. And when they are employed, as I have said before, they will be the first to demand higher wages and more benefits. They will tell their employer that they are no longer cheap labor and want the same pay and benefits they would pay a citizen. They will also be the most vocal against the next wave of illegals.
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