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Or maybe the illegal alien community doesn't match your belief of what it is. Maybe the media exaggerate the virtues and vices of illegal aliens according to its political bias. Maybe Pro-illegal media exaggerate how hard working and great illegal aliens. Maybe anti-illegal media exaggerate how awful, lazy, and murderous the illegal aliens are.
Perhaps, just perhaps, illegal aliens are somewhere in between. Perhaps they are just like everyone else. Perhaps they have their criminals just as much as they have hardworking entrepreneurs. Perhaps they're little different from others except for what documents they have. That's a scary thought isn't it though?
Perhaps the moon has cheese, but I don't think so. The info I posted is unbiased and credible. If illegal aliens were not using stolen and fake IDs, there would be absolutely nothing to post. There are an estimated 8 million illegal aliens employed in this country. ALL are committing theft and fraud. Not to mention, those committing rape, murder, and other violent acts. If you believe there are only 10-12 million here, that clearly constitutes a majority.
I'm saying that it is a punishment and does deter individuals. Where do we disagree? We don't have to disagree on everything you know? We can agree on several things without having to agree with one another's view of immigration.
Noooooooooooo. You said illegals suffer (in US prisons) and I'm asking you to explain to me just what is done to cause them to suffer. Being sent to jail for committing a crime is punishment. Where or what is it that illegals are suffering from while in prison?
I asked about the prisons in Mexico because I want to know if Mexican prisons treat their prisoners any better that those imprisoned in the US. Do prisoners in Mexico suffer any more or any less than prisoners in the US? The only thing I can think of that illegals in US prisons might "suffer" from would be at the hands of their imprisoned rival gang members, not the prison/system itself.
Illegal criminals may be coddled by the government while outside of prison, but the government is under no obligation to coddle them while inside of prison. I think even Obama would object to the continuance of special treatment to protect illegal criminals while in prison. Then again, who knows with that man.
The US should do what Castro did with the flotilla. Castro emptied his prisons and sent the criminals to the US. They went from prison to the boat, no stops inbetween. First we would have to secure our borders. Put up a wall like the one that divided East and West Berlin, or the one that Israel put up to keep Palestines confined. And just as a precaution put up electrified wire. Then we put all the criminals on buses, dump them over the border and close the door. This would certainly give some relief to the taxpayers for having to "care" for illegals while imprisoned. You do realize that US citizen tax money goes toward prisons?
Or maybe the illegal alien community doesn't match your belief of what it is. Maybe the media exaggerate the virtues and vices of illegal aliens according to its political bias. Maybe Pro-illegal media exaggerate how hard working and great illegal aliens. Maybe anti-illegal media exaggerate how awful, lazy, and murderous the illegal aliens are.
Perhaps, just perhaps, illegal aliens are somewhere in between. Perhaps they are just like everyone else. Perhaps they have their criminals just as much as they have hardworking entrepreneurs. Perhaps they're little different from others except for what documents they have. That's a scary thought isn't it though?
Most Americans aren't violating multiple American laws on a daily basis. What's really a scary thought is just how willing the pro-illegals are to bend over backwards and argue that just about any American law should be ignored at will just as long as an illegal might benefit from doing so.
Most illegals drive without licenses or insurance, steal social security numbers, learn little if any English and work off the books where they help to drive down wages, reduce job security for Americans and act as amoral scabs who send money home to prop up horrible dictatorships abroad.
Attempts to reduce such acts to merely being without a few pieces of paper is a gross insult. By that definition a marriage certificate is just a piece of paper. A college degree is just a piece of paper. Our constitution is ultimately, under that ludicrous assertion, just a piece of paper.
Yeah. That really is a scary thought. Maybe you shouldn't think that way?
Noooooooooooo. You said illegals suffer (in US prisons) and I'm asking you to explain to me just what is done to cause them to suffer. Being sent to jail for committing a crime is punishment. Where or what is it that illegals are suffering from while in prison?
Are you saying that people don't suffer in jail? I really don't get why you're trying to pick a fight on semantics.
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I asked about the prisons in Mexico because I want to know if Mexican prisons treat their prisoners any better that those imprisoned in the US. Do prisoners in Mexico suffer any more or any less than prisoners in the US? The only thing I can think of that illegals in US prisons might "suffer" from would be at the hands of their imprisoned rival gang members, not the prison/system itself.
What does the Mexican jail system have anything to do with this? Am I a representative of the Mexican government? Have I ever once said one thing positive about Mexican jails or government?
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Illegal criminals may be coddled by the government while outside of prison, but the government is under no obligation to coddle them while inside of prison. I think even Obama would object to the continuance of special treatment to protect illegal criminals while in prison. Then again, who knows with that man.
And I'm protesting the conditions of jail where exactly? I've stated there is suffering in jail. Hence this is why jail is a punishment, because you suffer in it. Which I should hope is a self evident truth. Why are you trying to pick a fight?
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Originally Posted by Eleanora1
Most Americans aren't violating multiple American laws on a daily basis. What's really a scary thought is just how willing the pro-illegals are to bend over backwards and argue that just about any American law should be ignored at will just as long as an illegal might benefit from doing so.
My criteria for whether a piece of legislation has legitimacy has nothing to do with whether illegals benefit from it. It has to do with whether it's (a) optimal or efficient and (b) just.
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Most illegals drive without licenses or insurance, steal social security numbers, learn little if any English and work off the books where they help to drive down wages, reduce job security for Americans and act as amoral scabs who send money home to prop up horrible dictatorships abroad.
It's granted that, with exception, illegals drive without licenses because they're barred from getting licenses in most cases. However I can't say I agree with you on the other points.
My extended family all has insurance. Why? Because should their automobiles get into a car accident, they obviously don't want to pay that huge lump of expenses. It's their economic incentive to purchase a certain degree of insurance.
Similarly it is in the interest of migrants to learn English. It is the lingua franca of the United States, especially in California. There are countless migrant communities that interact with one another on a daily basis and English, or more properly a pidgin variation of it, is used to ease these interactions. I really don't get where this myth comes of migrants, legal or illegal, not learning English. It's in their economic incentive to do so. Does this mean they will abandon their native languages? No, and they will likely continue to prefer their native languages. However, and this is a shocker, an individual can be bilingual. Granted that many migrants speak broken English, but they genuinely try to improve their knowledge.
As for this driving down wages bit or cause unemployment. Just fallacy. It's a complete and utter economic fallacy. Removing migrants, legal or illegal, would actually cause a decrease in the number of jobs.
I do love that word you used though. Scab. Yes, you're right! They're scabs and, more importantly, Americans are Union workers trying to artificially raise nominal wages at the cost of increasing costs for consumers (and as such lowering everyone's real wages)! I kept hoping someone here would get the parallel between the arguments between worker Unions and those wishing to restrict migrants. You earn a gold star for today Eleanora.
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Attempts to reduce such acts to merely being without a few pieces of paper is a gross insult. By that definition a marriage certificate is just a piece of paper. A college degree is just a piece of paper. Our constitution is ultimately, under that ludicrous assertion, just a piece of paper.
Yeah. That really is a scary thought. Maybe you shouldn't think that way?
Well actually I don't recognize that state's role in marriage, so for me a marriage certificate really is a piece of paper. That's perhaps a topic for another forum though.
Okay, I guess I should ignore the numerous reports of illegal aliens routinely returning home for the holidays, and instead take your word. You must live in an extremely large community to be privy to the behavior of the majority of the estimated 12-20 million.
But Benicar, I thought they were closer to 50 million?
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I notice you ignored the info I posted on the fake driver's licenses you claim "your community" doesn't use. Any comment?
I know of underage people who use them to get into bars, again just like I know citizens who do the same thing. I really can't say it's anything common to use a fake ID to go travelling down south though.
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No, I speak for myself. Yes, many share my stance on illegal immigration. But, I would never presume to be the spokesperson for all opponents of illegal immigration.
Really? Okay I'll be keeping an eye on you and point out everytime you use the royal we.
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BTW, perhaps you'd like to direct me to my "inaccurate" portrayals of illegal aliens. I always strive for the truth, and would appreciate having my errors brought to my attention.
I will do just that.
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I don't need to know what his "other offenses" may be. He is here illegally, and his illegal presence may cost an ICE agent his job and pension. In my opinion, that's a very valid reason for anger.
Oh, you'll have to excuse me on this one. I'm actually glad this agent might lose his job and pension. It's only a shame it's only one officer.
Oh, you'll have to excuse me on this one. I'm actually glad this agent might lose his job and pension. It's only a shame it's only one officer.
The guy that was arrested was arrested because he got into the car that was under ICE surveillance and drove off in it. He was assumed to be the suspect ICE was looking for. After her was taken to the station and fingerprinted, it was determined he was not the person under surveillance, but was in fact an illegal with multiple traffic violations.
The supervisors and the director should be held accountable and suspended, not the arresting officer. At the age of 35 the illegal didn't fall under the policy of the Pres for priority, Federal mandate says the illegal should have been placed into removal proceedings.
My criteria for whether a piece of legislation has legitimacy has nothing to do with whether illegals benefit from it. It has to do with whether it's (a) optimal or efficient and (b) just.
Our immigration, food safety, and driving laws are all of those things. Just because many Mexicans do not like them does mean we should do away with such laws. Illegals don't get a say in how this country is run. It's maddening that too many pols seem to believe otherwise.
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It's granted that, with exception, illegals drive without licenses because they're barred from getting licenses in most cases. However I can't say I agree with you on the other points.
And they should be arrested, fined and deported for doing so.
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My extended family all has insurance. Why? Because should their automobiles get into a car accident, they obviously don't want to pay that huge lump of expenses. It's their economic incentive to purchase a certain degree of insurance.
Similarly it is in the interest of migrants to learn English. It is the lingua franca of the United States, especially in California. There are countless migrant communities that interact with one another on a daily basis and English, or more properly a pidgin variation of it, is used to ease these interactions. I really don't get where this myth comes of migrants, legal or illegal, not learning English. It's in their economic incentive to do so. Does this mean they will abandon their native languages? No, and they will likely continue to prefer their native languages. However, and this is a shocker, an individual can be bilingual. Granted that many migrants speak broken English, but they genuinely try to improve their knowledge.
I have no idea why you think this is a myth. Turn on any television and you'll find numerous television channels in Spanish. Pick up documents at local pols office and you'll see them translated into Spanish. Listen as Hispanics whine that our presidential candidates aren't fluent enough in Spanish to suit them. Watch as local school districts are forced by Hispanic lobbying to provide bilingual education (i.e. educational services in Spanish to primarily Mexican lawbreakers.)
Illegals don't learn English because they are mostly lazy, arrogant and stupid. They believe that Americans should learn Spanish and be forced to bear the costs of any translations into their native languages.
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As for this driving down wages bit or cause unemployment. Just fallacy. It's a complete and utter economic fallacy. Removing migrants, legal or illegal, would actually cause a decrease in the number of jobs.
Yeah. They're so economically valuable. That's why Mexico is begging them to return!
Because our economy would be lost without Mexican high school dropouts who don't speak English!
Low skilled foreigners who don't have any job skills are not what this economy needs. Especially when they expect handouts based on race.
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I do love that word you used though. Scab. Yes, you're right! They're scabs and, more importantly, Americans are Union workers trying to artificially raise nominal wages at the cost of increasing costs for consumers (and as such lowering everyone's real wages)! I kept hoping someone here would get the parallel between the arguments between worker Unions and those wishing to restrict migrants. You earn a gold star for today Eleanora.
Um real wages haven't risen in decades. A consumer isn't hurt because the guy behind the counter or the one teaching his kids is paid a halfway decent wage. He is hurt when the cheap creep hires a foreigner who does not speak English or do a good job and can only remain here when the consumer is forced to subsidize his existence via higher taxes.
That's a disgusting conservative argument that only serves to point out the purpose of conservatism: to turn the world into slaves and slave owners.
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Well actually I don't recognize that state's role in marriage, so for me a marriage certificate really is a piece of paper. That's perhaps a topic for another forum though.
If you don't understand why a marriage certificate might be a source of pride then I'm not surprised that you think the difference between a legal American citizen and law breaking illegal alien is only a few pieces of paper.
But Benicar, I thought they were closer to 50 million?
I would not be the least bit surprised if there are in fact 50 million. However, I would be willing to bet a substantial number are enjoying a tax-free lifestyle by working in the underground economy, and/or are career criminals, drug traffickers, human smugglers, gang members, etc. It certainly wouldn't behoove them to expose themselves by coming out of the shadows. No, that unsavory group will remain illegal, regardless.
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Originally Posted by Frank_Knight
I know of underage people who use them to get into bars, again just like I know citizens who do the same thing. I really can't say it's anything common to use a fake ID to go travelling down south though.
When did I imply they are using fake IDs solely to travel SOB, or that traveling to Mexico even had significance? Oh, that's right, I didn't. But, I did illustrate the ease at which illegals may obtain fraudulent IDs, and its prevalence among the illegal alien population.
Sorry, but common sense dictates, document fraud, particularly, driver's licenses and SSNs, would not be a multi-billion dollar industry if it were actually "uncommon." Frankly, I'm surprised you would even try to refute this. After all, without stolen and fake IDs, illegals could not even survive in this country. They couldn't work, drive, open bank accounts, get mortgage or car loans, or credit cards. They certainly couldn't fraudulently receive tax-funded benefits reserved for citizens. Nor would the SCOTUS have needed to re-define ID theft to absolve them from guilt if they "unknowingly" *wink, wink* used a stolen or fake SSN belonging to a "real" person for employment purposes. But, you are certainly entitled to remain in denial.
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Originally Posted by Frank_Knight
Really? Okay I'll be keeping an eye on you and point out everytime you use the royal we.
Everyone on occasion uses "we" in a sentence. But, there's a huge difference between that, and one designating oneself as divine arbiter or spokesperson for an entire population. I have never done that, nor would I ever be so presumptuous. I was married to a legal immigrant for almost 20 years. That still doesn't qualify me as an authority on legal immigrants, and certainly not their lifestyles or hearts and minds.
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Originally Posted by Frank_Knight
I will do just that.
Why didn't you include one in this response? Why wait?
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Originally Posted by Frank_Knight
Oh, you'll have to excuse me on this one. I'm actually glad this agent might lose his job and pension. It's only a shame it's only one officer.
Please explain why you would celebrate this agent and others losing their jobs and pension? What terrible crimes or acts of inhumanity did he or they commit? Furthermore, I didn't realize you knew him or other ICE agents personally to be in the position to judge their character, or comment on their deserved fate. Yesterday, you didn't even know the particulars of this case. Yet, now you show such utter contempt. That certainly speaks volumes.
It never ceases to amaze me how illegals and their supporters can be so incredibly hypocritical, and so devoid of empathy and compassion for others who do not support their pro-illegal agenda. Yet, have no problem taking the moral high ground, and demonizing decent, law-abiding citizens for daring to oppose illegal immigration.
Please explain why you would celebrate this agent and others losing their jobs and pension? What terrible crimes or acts of inhumanity did he or they commit? Furthermore, I didn't realize you knew him or other ICE agents personally to be in the position to judge their character, or comment on their deserved fate. Yesterday, you didn't even know the particulars of this case. Yet, now you show such utter contempt. That certainly speaks volumes.
Maybe he has his eye on the job? One down and 999,999 to go.
The poster DK has shown nothing but contempt for US laws and now his contempt for law enforcement officers. Extreme concern for illegals that are arrested/detained for repeatedly breaking the law and the harshness of having to be deported - or worse yet, sent to prison and made to suffer. Yet, here we have a US citizen, doing his job, and DK rejoices over the possibility that he may lose his job. The hypocrisy is DK demanding evidence of prior violations for someone he believes is being railroaded or unjustly treated, but doesn't need to know the facts to rejoice where the ICE agent is concerned. Seems the ICE agent has already been tried and convicted in the Court of Mexifornia. IF that ICE agent does get dismiissed, I hope he, and his union backs him up, and brings a a major lawsuit against the government that is being run by a spineless eunuch.
This poster is a perfect example as to why Americans don't want illegals in the country or given a pathway to citizenship. Illegals are law breakers and/or support breaking the law, and I don't see that changing if, and when, they become legal. Their "legal" status isn't going to mean Americans are going to be more welcoming. Resentment will continue and what are they going to say? I'm legal now. I'm one of you. I'm almost a citizen.
Who are they going to cry to when they are caught committing a crime and US law applies to them??? If an illegal gets behind the wheel of a car DUI and runs down a family member, or they get robbed, beaten, shot, knifed, or raped by an illegal? Would they turn to the police who they have such contempt for? Will they demand justice and expect to go to the head of the line to get it? There will be thousands of illegals who won't apply for amnesty because of their criminal records and will remain in the US.
Do they really think that amnesty will mean the "laws" that have protected illegal repeat offenders up to now will still protect them and they won't be subject to the laws in place for citizens? They better get their head wrapped around the fact that US law will apply to them, right down to minor offenses that they always got a pass on.
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