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Old 08-15-2012, 08:27 AM
 
9,243 posts, read 7,099,270 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank_Knight View Post
This is their country.
No it is not.
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Old 08-15-2012, 08:52 AM
 
Location: California
2,477 posts, read 1,712,131 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank_Knight View Post
It depends. Have you read Hayek's Hayek's Law, Legislation and Liberty? It's fine if you have only read portions. If you haven't been introduced to its concepts though there is little that we can discuss without the common framework.

However I will say this much. This is our country. It certainly is my country. My great-great-grandfather was a US Citizen. He was also a Mexican national. He was born in neither the US or Mexico, but in a German state that no longer exists. Through him I have a branch of family members who have been born here since the turn of the century. They are all US citizens. They've been settled in the Los Angeles region for over a hundred years now. You would think they were newcomers from their mannerisms and culture. Their English is perfect, but they will speak Spanish among themselves with such fluency you have a hard time believing they could be US citizens.

My great-grandfather elected to maintain only Mexican citizenship, as an act of rebellion against his father who cheated on his mother. My grandfather and father respectively were frequent visitors to the USA, and spent several years respectively living on this side of the line during their lifetimes. My father is on his path to become a resident and eventually citizen. All five generations, including myself, have been versed in English and Spanish. With the exception of myself and my father (an atheist) Hebrew is also known and spoken.

We are not invaders. We are businessmen. We have had, and continue to have, businesses in just about everything. My family has created countless jobs on both sides of the border. Some family members are US citizens. Others are Mexican citizens. Some migrated when the migration laws were lax. Others migrated afterward when the current broken system came into place. Some are legal, and some are illegal. All of them consider themselves both American and Mexican because - well we are. We know the Mexican culture, and we know the American culture. We are also, needless to say as a business family, firmly opponents of the damn socialists. My grandfather spent the last election cycle in Mexico trying to discourage votes for the PRD candidate (a damned leftie!). We've never wanted any handouts. We don't want any filthy free food stamps. I've made this very very clear in the past - I do not support state welfare and would ask no threat of force used on other men in order to fund any welfare. A man owns the fruit of his labour. To take it without his consent is theft, and I could never justify such a thing.

Through an incidence of birth and time I was born in Mexico long after the migration laws of FDR and his cronies was set into stone. I was brought over when I was two. I do not have memories of Mexico, but I know the culture because of my family. I don't care for it much because I consider myself a California before all else. There is no pathway to citizenship for me. Am I to self deport to Mexico? I have family there, to be sure. I don't care for them, but they are there. I speak the language, and grudgingly know the culture. I would be heart broken, but I could survive it. When I was in my middle age I might even have my ban lifted and be allowed to apply to enter 'legally'. When I'm sixty I might even be a citizen!

It isn't home though. I see no reason to pretend it is. I see no reason to think myself a foreigner in California. This is my home. By blood I am descended by a US citizen. I have cousins who descended from a different branch that didn't forfeit their citizenship. Am I less Californian than them by virtue of my birthplace? We share the same ancestry, the same culture, the same language. Is birthplace the determinant?

Even if I had no ancestry in the states I would feel entitled to claim to be Californian. I have made myself a Californian. That is what a man does, he makes himself. He does not allow his birthplace to decide what he will be. No more than he allows being born into poverty to detract him from success by his own right. Have I done wrong to others by the act of living? No. I wasn't accepted into a university because of my descent, I was accepted by virtue of my merit. My merit. Any job I take is not a job taken away from a US citizen. It is simply a job taken by the better man. If an employer decides that this better man is myself and not another, should the other man cry foul play simply because he is a US Citizen? If a man needs to resort to claiming he owns a job by the virtue of his birth, he ceases to be a man. He is an imp or a dog, but not a man. A man makes himself, and should he fail he fixes himself.

I wait eagerly for the day that I am a citizen. Not so that I may use it to vote handouts to myself, but to allow others to be free of the unneeded obstacles that governments so frequently create. I have done no wrong. Nor have my parents done anything wrong. We have never robbed. We have never killed. We have never harmed another person or their property. To the contrary we have served others continually. We have run a shoe store. We have worked in restaurants. We have owned one or two of our own! This is not thievery. That is business.

Call us illegals. Blame us for all your woes and ills. The only wrong we have done is to ever believe the opinion of lesser men and women means anything.

But I digress. When you have read Hayek we may perhaps have a more fruitful conversation. Read the use of Knowledge in Society afterward. That should give you some background on why it's silly to say that we need economic controls of migration. I'd advice literature on the effects of prohibition, but that might be too much to ask someone before having a proper discussion on a given topic. (It's a joke you see? Since Hayek's Law, Legislation and Liberty is 3 volumes by themselves. Seriously though, read up on the economic effects of prohibition. Ignore those who'll say that economics is divorced from reality. They are themselves, ironically, divorced from reality.)
Have you tried applying for "Derivative Citizenship"? If not, why not? If denied, then what. It seems you are simply justifying your reason for being in the USA politically due to the PRD. Your ideals seem to point in the right direction, however they seem more as being used for your own justification of your predicament. Many illegal youth claim Libertarianism as political thought to justify themselves. You claim to be Californian, yet California does not accept you as a Resident. Your claiming to have made yourself Californian and the entitlement of its Residency is still your utopia, not reality. Who can blame you for not wanting to return to Mexico, your Mexican hometown, for all we know, may have been some village with little amenities. However there are other parts of Mexico, some quite nice.

The issue for you I believe is getting back into Mexico, you would need to go through your Consul for which you would need specific documents that you probably don't have here. For this it would be just as much a headache as staying here illegally. You have family both here and there, transition would be hard but once there you could always apply to come back here.

Most young people wish to see the world at your young age, to live/visit other countries, to experience and find their place.

Most economists out there agree that illegal alien labor diminishes the GDP by $14B per year, that is yet to include their social costs. Most economists also agree that they cost the US taxpayer $89K over their lifetime, with the exception of college educated illegals that cost only $12K over their lifetime. So, yes, there is an economic case to be made to rid ourselves of illegals.
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Old 08-15-2012, 09:08 AM
 
3,493 posts, read 2,385,999 times
Reputation: 2345
Quote:
Originally Posted by sharingan99 View Post
dude, he was a KID when he come over, what is he supposed to do, up and move back to mexico with no friends, family or support network? Hey, I'm just saying, if you can do that and go to a country that you never really know, you have to be one bad ***** mother ******. Anyways, at least he got a degree and he's trying to do something better for himself, which is better than probably the lot of you.
Yeah I'm sure he knows nothing about Mexico even though his family is Mexican.



Our immigration policies should not be about what is best for illegals. His problems are not our problems. Why are Americans just supposed to sit back and let Mexicans ignore our laws?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank_Knight View Post
This is their country.
Your living room is my living room. Me and my buddies said so!

Quote:
Originally Posted by sharingan99 View Post
and if it was you and you were dragged here illegally, tell me what YOU would do about YOUR situation. Oh this should be good...
And what if it were YOUR schools suffering with budget cuts so people who are breaking the law can get their children educated at YOUR expense? What would YOU do? What if it were YOUR wages being cut or YOUR taxes raised to benefit foreigners thumbing their noses at YOUR laws?

What would you do?

Quote:
Originally Posted by sharingan99 View Post
he's not blaming anyone, but you didn't say what YOU would do, ok so you blame your parents, now what? You are an illegal in america, do you go back home to a place where you have no family or friends and haven't been in a decade? Or do you try to just suck it up and see what you can do here? What would you do?
Again. His problems are not OUR problems. They are HIS problems. Americans are under no moral or legal obligation to solve them. We have a huge recession. Our government was elected by the American people to meet our needs not the needs of Mexicans. If he has a problem he should go home and fight for his rights in his own country. Instead he makes demands on our government. That's ridiculous.

We have more than enough lawyers. We are entitled to tell the world not to come here and bring in anymore.
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Old 08-15-2012, 09:23 AM
 
3,493 posts, read 2,385,999 times
Reputation: 2345
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank_Knight View Post
Through an incidence of birth and time I was born in Mexico long after the migration laws of FDR and his cronies was set into stone. I was brought over when I was two. I do not have memories of Mexico, but I know the culture because of my family. I don't care for it much because I consider myself a California before all else. There is no pathway to citizenship for me. Am I to self deport to Mexico? I have family there, to be sure. I don't care for them, but they are there. I speak the language, and grudgingly know the culture. I would be heart broken, but I could survive it. When I was in my middle age I might even have my ban lifted and be allowed to apply to enter 'legally'. When I'm sixty I might even be a citizen!

It isn't home though. I see no reason to pretend it is. I see no reason to think myself a foreigner in California. This is my home. By blood I am descended by a US citizen. I have cousins who descended from a different branch that didn't forfeit their citizenship. Am I less Californian than them by virtue of my birthplace? We share the same ancestry, the same culture, the same language. Is birthplace the determinant?

Even if I had no ancestry in the states I would feel entitled to claim to be Californian. I have made myself a Californian. That is what a man does, he makes himself. He does not allow his birthplace to decide what he will be. No more than he allows being born into poverty to detract him from success by his own right. Have I done wrong to others by the act of living? No. I wasn't accepted into a university because of my descent, I was accepted by virtue of my merit. My merit. Any job I take is not a job taken away from a US citizen. It is simply a job taken by the better man. If an employer decides that this better man is myself and not another, should the other man cry foul play simply because he is a US Citizen? If a man needs to resort to claiming he owns a job by the virtue of his birth, he ceases to be a man. He is an imp or a dog, but not a man. A man makes himself, and should he fail he fixes himself.

I wait eagerly for the day that I am a citizen. Not so that I may use it to vote handouts to myself, but to allow others to be free of the unneeded obstacles that governments so frequently create. I have done no wrong. Nor have my parents done anything wrong. We have never robbed. We have never killed. We have never harmed another person or their property. To the contrary we have served others continually. We have run a shoe store. We have worked in restaurants. We have owned one or two of our own! This is not thievery. That is business.

Call us illegals. Blame us for all your woes and ills. The only wrong we have done is to ever believe the opinion of lesser men and women means anything.
The deep contempt and lack of gratitude towards this country that you clearly show here makes me hope you are deported. It is typical of the attitude of illegals. Not content to get an education at American expense, you dare whine that we don't let you skip the immigration lines. Not content to screw up our largest state and bring it deeply in debt, you dare whine we don't let you stay in the middle of a recession. Not content with the fact that we've allowed more than one in eight Mexicans to move here, you whine that we don't let ALL of you move here.

You are Mexico's problem not ours. Go make demands on your leaders instead of ours. If your parents brought you here they can easily bring you home. If you can't come here legally you have no moral or legal right to come here illegally. The last people we need in this country are those who break our laws as their first action when they show up.

I have no idea why you want to demand American citizenship anyway. You clearly hate Americans.
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Old 08-15-2012, 10:43 AM
 
Location: NC
10,005 posts, read 8,718,680 times
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My understanding is that if you are illegal you are not legally allowed to work anywhere. If you are a non-citizen and want to work in the US we have work visas and green cards for that. Why should working in the legal field get some sort of magical special government sanction vs. every other kind of employment?

Also as Eleanor correctly points out in theory you should be in good standing to be an officer of the court. Violating the law every time you show up in court representing a paying client should preclude that.
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Old 08-15-2012, 10:53 AM
 
2,924 posts, read 2,267,864 times
Reputation: 618
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank_Knight View Post
Look, I'm not symphatizing with this kid. Do I think he should be allowed to practice law? Sure why not. I think he's an idiot for thinking he'd be allow to practice though. Imagine all the time and resources he spent in something he could never practice in. He should have been practical and realized he simply couldn't go into that career.

All I was pointing out on this occasion was that a degree in one place isn't the same elsewhere. Due to the nature of these forums I am unclear if that was understood or not. Better to point it out then to make sure noone seriously believed a degree in USA law was helpful in Peru or Russia.
He is an idiot. He should have found an American citizen, pay her 15 grand, get married, get you green card and get divorced. All under 3 years. He is a lawyer and he doesn't know how things are done in America? With money, stupid. Maybe he shouldn't be a lawyer after all.
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Old 08-15-2012, 02:38 PM
 
Location: OCEAN BREEZES AND VIEWS SAN CLEMENTE
19,899 posts, read 15,291,186 times
Reputation: 6451
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eleanora1 View Post
Yeah I'm sure he knows nothing about Mexico even though his family is Mexican.



Our immigration policies should not be about what is best for illegals. His problems are not our problems. Why are Americans just supposed to sit back and let Mexicans ignore our laws?



Your living room is my living room. Me and my buddies said so!



And what if it were YOUR schools suffering with budget cuts so people who are breaking the law can get their children educated at YOUR expense? What would YOU do? What if it were YOUR wages being cut or YOUR taxes raised to benefit foreigners thumbing their noses at YOUR laws?

What would you do?



Again. His problems are not OUR problems. They are HIS problems. Americans are under no moral or legal obligation to solve them. We have a huge recession. Our government was elected by the American people to meet our needs not the needs of Mexicans. If he has a problem he should go home and fight for his rights in his own country. Instead he makes demands on our government. That's ridiculous.

We have more than enough lawyers. We are entitled to tell the world not to come here and bring in anymore.
That's right! here here i agree. If anyone is to blame, the dang Parents of these illegal children, for they know the consequences, of their actions.

Their problems are not our problems, and in no way should we be responsible for these people or their lawless actions.
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Old 08-15-2012, 03:29 PM
 
Location: California
2,477 posts, read 1,712,131 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rebel12 View Post
He is an idiot. He should have found an American citizen, pay her 15 grand, get married, get you green card and get divorced. All under 3 years. He is a lawyer and he doesn't know how things are done in America? With money, stupid. Maybe he shouldn't be a lawyer after all.
I see you have no clue how marriage to an illegal works. It does not grant automatic legality to the illegal. The illegal is still illegal.
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Old 08-15-2012, 03:32 PM
 
10,652 posts, read 11,347,155 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jayarcy View Post
What nerve! Here in violation of the law, and they want to practice law.
Not fair is it!?
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Old 08-15-2012, 06:57 PM
 
130 posts, read 295,944 times
Reputation: 160
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eleanora1 View Post
Yeah I'm sure he knows nothing about Mexico even though his family is Mexican.



Our immigration policies should not be about what is best for illegals. His problems are not our problems. Why are Americans just supposed to sit back and let Mexicans ignore our laws?



Your living room is my living room. Me and my buddies said so!



And what if it were YOUR schools suffering with budget cuts so people who are breaking the law can get their children educated at YOUR expense? What would YOU do? What if it were YOUR wages being cut or YOUR taxes raised to benefit foreigners thumbing their noses at YOUR laws?

What would you do?



Again. His problems are not OUR problems. They are HIS problems. Americans are under no moral or legal obligation to solve them. We have a huge recession. Our government was elected by the American people to meet our needs not the needs of Mexicans. If he has a problem he should go home and fight for his rights in his own country. Instead he makes demands on our government. That's ridiculous.

We have more than enough lawyers. We are entitled to tell the world not to come here and bring in anymore.
You could have saved yourself the 15 mins it took to type all this out. I wanted to know people's responses to what would they would do if they were in the situation, however, all you have done is just turn this around which was not the intent or purpose. You did not answer the question at all.
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