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Old 08-16-2012, 01:49 PM
 
Location: Tampa (by way of Omaha)
13,752 posts, read 18,393,018 times
Reputation: 8941

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Quote:
Originally Posted by CinSonic View Post
Arizona is not "anti immigration", they are "anti illegal immigration". ILLEGAL!!!!
Except for all the years they ignored the issue, right?

 
Old 08-16-2012, 01:55 PM
 
8,936 posts, read 15,851,020 times
Reputation: 6649
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bosco55David View Post
Oh believe me, I have no issue going for the intelligence issue, and it we want to keep arguing semantics over a poorly worded part of the post typed from an iPhone, I can blast right through that one too.

Regardless though, we both agree that this is nothing more than grandstanding on her part, so we have that common ground.
Apparently you don't grasp "semantics" either

you can't just discount using the words "legal citizenship" as semantics .... it's not linguistics, it's as mentioned "legal"

the first thing to note is that the president can't grant "legal citizenship" to illegal immigrants - this is really basic stuff

second - this act doesn't provide legal citizenship, not even on a temporary basis - it in no way absolves or puts on illegal immigrants who fit certain criteria on a path to citizenship - this has been made very clear by the administration ..... all it is saying is that if you meet certain criteria you we will defer deporting you and will open an avenue for you to obtain a work permit as needed - there is a massive difference between that & citizenship

this then leads to the discussion about drivers licenses - the vast majority of states do not allow DLs to those who cannot prove that they have full legal status - this program does not change that

if they were being granted citizenship or some sort of legal status as it pertains to citizenship then I could see outrage if they were then being denied IDs, benefits, etc and that is the position you stated

however, the reality is they are not being granted citizenship so the states aren't denying citizens of anything ....... each state has their own existing rules of what it takes to get certain things, including state issued ID & benefits ........ this policy doesn't change that and if they don't fit even after the petition then they simply still don't fit

nothing is being taken away
 
Old 08-16-2012, 01:59 PM
 
Location: California
2,477 posts, read 1,711,425 times
Reputation: 299
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bosco55David View Post
Well aware, hence why I pointed out that the Hispanic vote was already a lock for Obama.

A) yes. B) what's your point?

I'm well aware of this as well, and the debt is really not that high on my list of worries right now. Outside of letting the Bush tax cuts expire, I'm content to put off the debt issue Until the economy is on solid footing.
My point was you seem very ideologically Progressive/Liberal/Democrat and simply blame the Republicans for everything you disagree with.

You believe we can provide assistance to everybody, yet you recognize we are broke.

You think Brewer is giving a symbolic middle finger to illegals? Are you aware that Federal Law prohibits granting license and aid to illegals, all Brewer is doing is making sure that no Progressive attempts to interpret law on their own. Finger pretty much spelled it out. Obama's DoJ has even made a point of this here:"Undocumented" Immigrants Can't Practice Law, Justice Department Argues
Quote:
the Justice Departments says undocumented immigrants cannot practice law because they are not legally entitled to benefits administered by public agencies—including bar licenses.
 
Old 08-16-2012, 02:13 PM
 
Location: Maryland
15,179 posts, read 15,809,199 times
Reputation: 3028
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bosco55David View Post
Thanks for the correction, doesn't change the argument though.

I was a teenager when we moved to Florida. Sure wasn't my choice.

Who is lying and stealing?
What part of they came as teens of their own volition did you miss? Thousands chose to enter this country in their teens. So, THEY, not their parents, are responsible.

Illegal aliens survive in this country by lying, cheating, and stealing. Or, do you consider people who use several aliases to evade the law, and commit ID theft/document fraud paragons of virtue?
 
Old 08-16-2012, 02:14 PM
 
Location: Tampa (by way of Omaha)
13,752 posts, read 18,393,018 times
Reputation: 8941
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finger Laker View Post
Apparently you don't grasp "semantics" either

you can't just discount using the words "legal citizenship" as semantics .... it's not linguistics, it's as mentioned "legal"

the first thing to note is that the president can't grant "legal citizenship" to illegal immigrants - this is really basic stuff

second - this act doesn't provide legal citizenship, not even on a temporary basis - it in no way absolves or puts on illegal immigrants who fit certain criteria on a path to citizenship - this has been made very clear by the administration ..... all it is saying is that if you meet certain criteria you we will defer deporting you and will open an avenue for you to obtain a work permit as needed - there is a massive difference between that & citizenship

this then leads to the discussion about drivers licenses - the vast majority of states do not allow DLs to those who cannot prove that they have full legal status - this program does not change that

if they were being granted citizenship or some sort of legal status as it pertains to citizenship then I could see outrage if they were then being denied IDs, benefits, etc and that is the position you stated

however, the reality is they are not being granted citizenship so the states aren't denying citizens of anything ....... each state has their own existing rules of what it takes to get certain things, including state issued ID & benefits ........ this policy doesn't change that and if they don't fit even after the petition then they simply still don't fit

nothing is being taken away
You did a lot of typing to "correct" what was a simple mistake on my part, and we both know it. Gonna have to do better than that.
 
Old 08-16-2012, 02:18 PM
 
31,485 posts, read 14,565,596 times
Reputation: 8353
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bosco55David View Post
Well first off your assertion is bonkers to begin with. Obama already got the Hispanic vote, and they won't be breaking for the GOP anytime soon.

Second, we are $16 trillion in debt (thats federal, not state debt...FYI) because save for a brief reprieve under Clinton, we've got about two decades of the disaster of supply side economics under our belts, but that is a different debate. Suffice it to say though, we solve that problem and we'd have much more money to go around for public assistance. This a rather complex situation though, and it's clear you just don't grasp that.
Obama was losing some of the Hispanic vote for not fulfilling his promise of an amnesty within the first 90 days of his presidency. They even threatened not to vote for him this time. He had to do this to gain those Hispanic votes back. He knows he is going to lose some of his Democrat base and the Independents also with how the economy is going, our large debt and little to no job creation.

On another note, you claimed that we should be able to support every needy person here regardless of status. Really, how and why? I don't consider beiing trillions of dollars in debt as being wealthy. I have issues with illegal immigrants being given work permits when millions of Americans are seeking jobs and can't find one.
 
Old 08-16-2012, 02:19 PM
 
8,936 posts, read 15,851,020 times
Reputation: 6649
There are basically 2 points of contention on this as with so many things, there is a lot of murky area surrounding a pretty sloppy policy

This was not worked through legislative means - so no authority that comes from a legislative action can be granted.

This is pretty much coming from the department of homeland security in conjunction with the US Citizenship & Immigration Services department

Here is the USCIS link to the program

USCIS - Consideration of Deferred Action for Childhood Arrivals Process

Here is a very important bit of information straight from them - no spin, no filters, just black & white text

Quote:
What is deferred action?

Deferred action is a discretionary determination to defer removal action of an individual as an act of prosecutorial discretion.

Deferred action does not confer lawful status upon an individual.

In addition, although an individual whose case is deferred will not be considered to be accruing unlawful presence in the United States during the period deferred action is in effect, deferred action does not excuse individuals of any previous or subsequent periods of unlawful presence.

Under existing regulations, an individual whose case has been deferred is eligible to receive employment authorization for the period of deferred action, provided he or she can demonstrate “an economic necessity for employment.”

DHS can terminate or renew deferred action at any time at the agency’s discretion.
that last point is important as well about how the program is at the discretion of homeland security and they could end it tommorrow if they wanted

it's very clear that it does not provide lawful status - it's very clear that it's an agreement to not deport those who meet certain criteria who petition & file

where it gets murky - especially in respect to things like drivers licenses - is that there is a petition to apply for a work permit

some work permits are deemed acceptable to obtain a license - even in AZ

however, even some of those permits are unacceptable in places like VA (I-766 for example)

the crux of the issue is going to be if those who are able to also obtain the work permit in addition to the deferred action will fit the mark for what is already acceptable or otherwise mandated for IDs, benefits, etc

This is the part that is still unclear - mainly because it's hard to get much good information or anything beyond talking points from either side of the issue

Off hand it doesn't look like the permit they grant does this as it's not tied to any legal status - so the whole thing kind of goes around in a circle - mainly because it's an administrative position from DHS & not an act of the legislature
 
Old 08-16-2012, 02:21 PM
 
8,936 posts, read 15,851,020 times
Reputation: 6649
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bosco55David View Post
You did a lot of typing to "correct" what was a simple mistake on my part, and we both know it. Gonna have to do better than that.
I'm not buying it for a minute - I'd bet dollars to donuts that you simply read a headline and ran with it - nothing unusual in that though

not a minor distinction in any way, shape or form for what you typed and what is reality

legal citizenship is a very high standard and if you even put that in your mind as being on an equivilent of granting a work permit or deciding not to deport then there is a big gap in basic understanding

neither here nor there at this point though
 
Old 08-16-2012, 02:24 PM
 
Location: Tampa (by way of Omaha)
13,752 posts, read 18,393,018 times
Reputation: 8941
Quote:
Originally Posted by Liquid Reigns View Post
My point was you seem very ideologically Progressive/Liberal/Democrat and simply blame the Republicans for everything you disagree with.
Not quite. I'm a very moderate independent with a slight left lean on some issues. That just *seems* radical compared to the currently insane GOP.

Quote:
You believe we can provide assistance to everybody, yet you recognize we are broke.
Having a lot of debt is not the same as being broke.

Quote:
You think Brewer is giving a symbolic middle finger to illegals? Are you aware that Federal Law prohibits granting license and aid to illegals
That's my point. There was no reason to do this, hence me calling it a symbolic middle finger.
 
Old 08-16-2012, 02:50 PM
 
1,580 posts, read 1,422,338 times
Reputation: 748
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bosco55David View Post
Just to reiterate, Obama grants temporary legal citizenship to the children of illegal immigrants, who essentially had no choice in there current place in life, and Brewer's response is to kick sand in their face by denying them the chance to get public assistance.

I could TOTALLY see God advocating that kind of behavior.

You must be one of far too many who have never visited the DREAMAct Portal. You really need to read a few of their stories. The crimes that they admit to committing will change your heart, that is if you survive the attack.
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