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Old 08-17-2012, 11:58 PM
 
47,576 posts, read 58,792,170 times
Reputation: 22171

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Quote:
Originally Posted by .highnlite View Post
Go to any field ask for work, you will be welcomed, sort of, white Americans do not work in the fields and aside from a few short years in the Depression, never have in any numbers. No employer wants them because they are not dependable and they are sloppy and slow. A mexican crew, illegal or legal will work three times as fast as white Americans. If you think growers set wages you don't know capitalism.

Yet Americans will go work and face great danger in countries like Iraq and Afghanistan where they work in 120 degrees getting shot at.

Americans don't want to work in the fields and make only $4 or $5 an hour with no overtime pay. Ever hear of Cesar Chavez? He didn't want illegals pouring over the border either, because he wanted to improve the pay and working conditions for those who work in the fields. Well you open-borders-unlimited-cheap-labor- proponents destroyed that cause.

And not all field workers are here illegally -- some are here on H2A visas and so are here perfectly legally.

And there are fewer than 800,000 total jobs in farming. Very few illegals are here working the fields.

 
Old 08-18-2012, 09:23 AM
 
Location: California
2,477 posts, read 1,714,664 times
Reputation: 299
Quote:
Originally Posted by .highnlite View Post
Originally Posted by Oldglory
It isn't only rich Republicans who use illegal immigrant labor. Democrats do also. Unless you think there are no Democrats that are rich and own businesses. I don't know what you mean by the Republicans encouraging them to come here. Can you discuss this issue without playing the political blame game?

No, I cannot discuss this without playing the blame game, conservatives blame the illegal problem on the Democrats, which is baloney, the only time Conservatives will admit democrats have businesses is if there is the possibility they employ illegals, the rest of the time democrats are pot smoking welfare queens and kings.

Now, how did they get here and what did Republicans have to do with it? Easy, we had the bracero program which ended in 1964, the need for labor did not. So good patriotic Republican growers like my old man (find a democrat grower, I haven't) encouraged illegal immigration. They build camps for them hidden in the hills and canyons, tent platforms with tents, fed them three meals a day.



The fact is that these illegal immigrants are here in violation of our laws and they know it but it appears you don't want to put any blame on them at all.

It is irrelevant whether I put blame on them or not, they are here.

Those visas work for many "growers" if that is the word you want to use. I am sure situations like you described are something that has been around since time began when crops were in danger of being lost. I don't think there are that many stupid growers who don't account for or plan for that.

No, once again, you are wrong, the visas don't work, and they are not used in California agriculture, to make the statement you made shows that you do not know California Agriculture and how weather and market driven it is. I could take you out right now and show you hundreds of zucchini on our ranch, discarded by the cutters as they are too large, they are too large because they grew too fast and there weren't enough cutters to cut them, Mayordomo needed 100 cutters, could only get 30, you people are winning and your reward will be higher grocery bills and more economic collapse in ag dependent towns..

What's the deal of mentioning Arkansas? Is Arkansas the only place that conservatives live? Arkansas state trooper pulls over a driver, he says "got any ID?" The driver says, "bout what?"

I believe it is you who is buying into the left wing propaganda that illegal immigrants are needed in our country and that they are an overall benefit to our country.

They are needed and I just told you why. Now if you good patriots would get out to the fields and save America from the brown peril, pick our crops, if not you, who?



I suggest you read up on the healthcare costs that these "growers" and other employers are passing on to you and I the taxpayer. I suggest you read up on how much it is costing the taxpayer for their U.S. born kids.

Look these people are US taxpayers just like you and I, cracks me up that you people don't think they pay taxes, they have same with holding as a legal worker, they pay sales tax property tax everything you or I pay. In fact, their employer does not know if they are illegal or legal, they all walk in the door with the same paperwork. The rightwing crap fax works overtime on this one.

A job held by an illegal immigrant is a job that only an American has the right to and that is the bottom line. If these employers truly have a shortage of American workers rather than the real reason which is higher profits from illegal immigrant workers I'd certainly like proof of that.


Go to any field ask for work, you will be welcomed, sort of, white Americans do not work in the fields and aside from a few short years in the Depression, never have in any numbers. No employer wants them because they are not dependable and they are sloppy and slow. A mexican crew, illegal or legal will work three times as fast as white Americans. If you think growers set wages you don't know capitalism.
You can't find a Democrat ran farm in California? Really? What about Heinz and their tomatoes?

So your dad built camps in the hills for illegals because the H2A visa is to complicated? You also claim nobody in California uses the H2A. There are farmers in California that use the H2A, a minority of them. The issue is that workers through the H2A are given certain protections and guarantees that farmers feel are unfair as they only need them for relatively short periods of time, 2 - 6 weeks during harvest not the 10 months or the guaranteed minimum pay. The rest of the time there is no need. I would agree that H2A needs to be revised, but your claims are exaggerated.

How can illegals pay property tax if they are living in the hills in camps made by people like your father? Sure they pay sales tax and fuel taxes if they drive, but they don't have state income tax or federal income tax with held if they are being paid under the table (Cash) and then file tax forms with an ITIN and receive back money they never paid in resulting in a negative tax owed; thus robbing the treasury. Besides H2A's are exempt from having certain taxes withheld from their paychecks. Illegals are usually paid in cash in the farm community or if given a check with withholdings are being cheated by the farmer of which you admitted knows they are illegal.

You contradict yourself with your own argument. I'm willing to bet with you being in your 60's that you own the family farm and are the one hiring illegals to pick your crops.
 
Old 08-18-2012, 09:38 AM
 
Location: San Luis Obispo and Santa Barbara Counties
6,390 posts, read 7,353,108 times
Reputation: 2622
Quote:
Originally Posted by malamute View Post
The problem with the crops is the widespread drought.

Anyhow only a handful of illegals work in agriculture. We can import food from Mexico and they can work there.
Nonsense California agriculture is irrigated. Since 2011 was a wet year, there is plenty of water in the reservoirs. Importing our food makes as much sense as importing our oil.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oldglory View Post
You have to go all the way back to the Bracero program to put all the blame on the Republicans? That was decades ago. Reagan granted many of them amnesty and regretted it. That's all in the past. What has that to do with the illegal immigration problem today?

Curious, typically to determine the source of a problem it helps to go to the beginning.

There are welfare queens and drug users all over the country along both party lines. I have never heard a Republican say that all Democrats are these things and not even the majority of them. Guess you don't listen to limbaugh or hannity or oreilly et al

There are no Democrat growers? Nancy Pelosi and her vineyards come to mind and that is only one example. Please, the members of both parties are guilty of hiring illegal immigrants.

Not talking about hiring illegals, talking about democrat growers. You found, possibly, one?



I live in California I know more about the growers and the visas then you think I do and I will let it go at that. Even with illegal immigrant labor our costs of produce are not any lower especially when you consider that we have to cover their healthcare and other costs which the cheap employer refuses to do.

Apparently not. 47 million Americans are not covered by "cheap employers"

So a joke about Arkansas is reality to you? What does the joke have to do with being a conservative? Are you implying that there are no Democrats in the state of Arkansas?

No, I was implying that Conservatives are not very smart.

Sorry no, illegal immgrants aren't needed. We have plenty of legal immigrants and citizens who will do those jobs.

So, how come with high unemployment, we don't see these people in the fields?

If only a small number of illegal immigrants are picking crops then why do you keep bringing that up as an example? Because that is what I am talking about.

Brown peril? Oh, now we are getting to the race card. Took longer than I thought but there it is just like clockwork. Of course it is, would you let your daughter date a Mexican field worker?

Did I say that illegal immgrants don't pay any taxes? No, I didn't. However, they don't pay in enough taxes to cover their costs to us. They don't all pay income taxes either if they are working under the table or have many dependents.

No, you are wrong again, they have the same with holding as legals.
Still on your rightwing kick? You talk about the Repubicans blaming the Democrats for everything but aren't you doing the same in reverse? Yes I am, and you will see the results of the Republican actions in your grocery bill.

You continue to bring up crop picking while totally ignoring the fact that most illegal immigrants aren't doing that kind of work. Why is that? Because that is what I am talking about.

Your negative and false stereotyping of the American and legal immigrant worker is duly noted. You are using the typical excuses to justify illegal immigraton. I have heard enough. Hopefully some other members in here will reply to you as I am done.

I am not justifying it, that is a simplistic thought process on your part. I am stating they are here, and Americans won't do their field jobs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by crestliner View Post
BS my man total BS We will get what we want when the illegals who are trying to colonist here in the USA are charged with their crimes and deported ..Maybe a good slap down too just for good measure..You esay? lol Obama is planning on doing nothing about the illegals but offer them help with our money and not even talk about enforcing the laws. It will get worse if he gets re-elected
Non rational, and non factual

Quote:
Originally Posted by malamute View Post
Yet Americans will go work and face great danger in countries like Iraq and Afghanistan where they work in 120 degrees getting shot at.

Americans don't want to work in the fields and make only $4 or $5 an hour with no overtime pay.

Nonsense, the least the illegals make is Federal minimum wage.


Ever hear of Cesar Chavez? Sure, he threatened to kill my at the time 10 year old sister as she got off the school bus, my parents home had to be guarded by Sheriffs and CHP.

He didn't want illegals pouring over the border either, because he wanted to improve the pay and working conditions for those who work in the fields. Well you open-borders-unlimited-cheap-labor- proponents destroyed that cause.

BS, the Farmer Worker Union corruption destroyed themselves, when the bracero program ended the number of workers dropped, they had to be replaced, and were.

And not all field workers are here illegally -- some are here on H2A visas and so are here perfectly legally.

You people say that, but, I know of no field workers on H2A visas, the program was designed not to work and it succeeds in that.

And there are fewer than 800,000 total jobs in farming. Very few illegals are here working the fields.

Yet, 80% of field workers are illegal and the economies of many towns and counties depend on them, and you want to see it crash without a replacement, very anti American that.
 
Old 08-18-2012, 09:45 AM
 
5,823 posts, read 2,979,545 times
Reputation: 5838
Anyone who doesn't think that illegals are seriously taking jobs that Americans WILL DO has their liberal and ignorant head up their axe.
I've watched many construction, house cleaners, masons, and landscape workers lose their jobs because they can't compete with the illegals who get paid under the table, don't have to pay taxes, and get welfare subsidies they can't get.
And I am a former Dem who jumped out of the party (now Independent) precisely because of my disgust of the Dems corrupted pandering to the Hispanics, votes, and business community over this--instead of looking out for the middle class workers.
 
Old 08-18-2012, 12:31 PM
 
47,576 posts, read 58,792,170 times
Reputation: 22171
Quote:
Originally Posted by .highnlite View Post
Nonsense California agriculture is irrigated. Since 2011 was a wet year, there is plenty of water in the reservoirs. Importing our food makes as much sense as importing our oil.





Non rational, and non factual
There are fewer than 800,000 total jobs in farming and the number of farming jobs is decreasing at a rate of 3% a year. Farming doesn't begin to account for all the millions of illegals here.

Cesar Chavez did not kill anyone. He simply wanted better pay and working conditions for American workers and knew that illegals were all about bringing wages down and keeping job conditions bad. They believed that the illegals should go home and do something more for their own country, not come here to bring wages down.

The UFW was Americans -- which shows that Americans will do the that work. The only reason they won't is that Cesar Chavez' and the UFW cause lost and the cheap labor employers won.

And many illegals are working for less than minimum wage. MANY are. There is very good reason that some employers are so willing to break the laws and risk workplace raids and fines -- they are profitting very nicely from illegal labor.

I know for a fact that there are illegals working in Chicago factories for $6 an hour and around here $200 a week is considered excellent wages for the illegals. Housekeepers working 24-7 cleaning houses and caring for kids can be paid anywhere from $100 to $150 a week. A lawn caretaker would be tickled pink to have $200 a week steady job.
 
Old 08-18-2012, 03:07 PM
 
Location: San Luis Obispo and Santa Barbara Counties
6,390 posts, read 7,353,108 times
Reputation: 2622
Quote:
Originally Posted by Liquid Reigns View Post
You can't find a Democrat ran farm in California? Really? What about Heinz and their tomatoes?

I don't know, tell me about them, then tell me how the California tomato crop is harvested and why, a little education is a good thing.

So your dad built camps in the hills for illegals because the H2A visa is to complicated? You also claim nobody in California uses the H2A.

Holy smokes, you are describing actions that occurred a generation apart



There are farmers in California that use the H2A, a minority of them. The issue is that workers through the H2A are given certain protections and guarantees that farmers feel are unfair as they only need them for relatively short periods of time, 2 - 6 weeks during harvest not the 10 months or the guaranteed minimum pay.

Why do you guys that know nothing about agriculture feel competent to comment on it? Remember, growers (farmers have chickens and pigs and wear bib overhauls) don't hire the field workers. Field workers in California produce work year round, they are not migrants.





The rest of the time there is no need. I would agree that H2A needs to be revised, but your claims are exaggerated.

Again, Field workers work year round, I have no claims, read the darned regulations for H2a see if you can figure out the problem with it.

How can illegals pay property tax if they are living in the hills in camps made by people like your father?

Sadness here, why do you people that know nothing about ag feel competent to comment on it, those camps disappeared a generation ago.



Sure they pay sales tax and fuel taxes if they drive, but they don't have state income tax or federal income tax with held if they are being paid under the table.

They aren't being paid under the table, as I have stated they have the same withholding as a legal, and their employer does not know who is legal and who is not, they all walk in the door with the same paperwork (why do I have to repeat myself in the same thread?)



(Cash) and then file tax forms with an ITIN and receive back money they never paid in resulting in a negative tax owed; thus robbing the treasury. Besides H2A's are exempt from having certain taxes withheld from their paychecks. Illegals are usually paid in cash in the farm community or if given a check with withholdings are being cheated by the farmer of which you admitted knows they are illegal

Three errors here,
A. They are not paid cash under the table.
B. I have told you that growers do not employ their field workers
C. Neither their employer nor the grower knows who is legal and who is illegal (why do I have to repeat myself in the same thread?).


You contradict yourself with your own argument. I'm willing to bet with you being in your 60's that you own the family farm and are the one hiring illegals to pick your crops.

As I have stated several times, Growers do not hire their field workers Can we work on remembering that?
Quote:
Originally Posted by malamute View Post



Cesar Chavez did not kill anyone. Look up the difference between threaten to kill, and kill

He simply wanted better pay and working conditions for American workers
A. Cesar Chavez did not run UFWOC, he was only the pretty face to the media
C. If your sentence is correct how come the Mexican flag flew at their rallies, but not the American Flag?





The UFW was Americans -- which shows that Americans will do the that work. The only reason they won't is that Cesar Chavez' and the UFW cause lost and the cheap labor employers won.

CaCa, the UFW internal corruption was the problem.

And many illegals are working for less than minimum wage. MANY are. There is very good reason that some employers are so willing to break the laws and risk workplace raids and fines -- they are profitting very nicely from illegal labor.

I know for a fact that there are illegals working in Chicago factories for $6 an hour and around here $200 a week is considered excellent wages for the illegals. Housekeepers working 24-7 cleaning houses and caring for kids can be paid anywhere from $100 to $150 a week. A lawn caretaker would be tickled pink to have $200 a week steady job.

That is fine, I don't comment on what I know little about, I will leave that up to you.

Maybe I should write a book. The rightwing whackos guide to Illegal Labor in the California Vegetable Fields.
 
Old 08-18-2012, 03:30 PM
 
Location: Maryland
18,563 posts, read 15,798,153 times
Reputation: 6259
I find it ICE's reasoning for not enforcing our laws egregious. I mean by the same token, police shouldn't enforce speeding tickets, broken tailpipes since these aren't violent crimes.
 
Old 08-18-2012, 06:04 PM
 
47,576 posts, read 58,792,170 times
Reputation: 22171
Quote:
Originally Posted by .highnlite View Post
Maybe I should write a book. The rightwing whackos guide to Illegal Labor in the California Vegetable Fields.
Cesar Chavez never threatened to kill illegals. That is a boldface lie. He simply didn't want them coming over and taking the jobs of the American farm workers and he didn't want illegals being used to bring down wages or to bust the union strikes.

And Cesar Chavez and the UFW were not right wing.
 
Old 08-19-2012, 10:16 PM
 
Location: California
2,477 posts, read 1,714,664 times
Reputation: 299
(highnlite) I don't know, tell me about them, then tell me how the California tomato crop is harvested and why, a little education is a good thing.
The claim you made was you knew of no Democrat farm in California, I merely pointed one out to you. Now, I would venture to say that Heinz probably uses a mechanical tomato harvester since the tomatoes are going to be processed. http://www.agalert.com/story/?id=554


Holy smokes, you are describing actions that occurred a generation apart
No, there were recent raids within the hills of California on illegal farm workers where they were living in small camps that the local agencies picked them up from for working in the fields.

Why do you guys that know nothing about agriculture feel competent to comment on it? Remember, growers (farmers have chickens and pigs and wear bib overhauls) don't hire the field workers. Field workers in California produce work year round, they are not migrants.
Right, agencies do, and the farmer pays the agency a set rate per worker, thus the farmer has no clue as to whether the worker is having deductions withheld or not. Now, there goes your claim that they all have withholdings like everybody else. Why do you feel compelled to claim things you really haven't a clue about, especially when you claim that farmers don't hire directly?

Again, Field workers work year round, I have no claims, read the darned regulations for H2a see if you can figure out the problem with it.
I know how the H2A works and I know its requirements. The issue isn't so much the farmer now (using agencies as the middleman), its the agencies that hire or bring in the H2A's that you supposedly use. Funny how it was meant for farmers to hire directly, instead they created these agencies (with the approval of the Feds) to do it for them, since they don't need 50 workers for 10 months. The agency helps here to, but the Feds came in with the 75% rule. I mean there really is certain things in there to protect the worker that the Farmer isn't held accountable for since the farmer doesn't hire directly. http://www.dol.gov/whd/regs/compliance/whdfs26.pdf

Sadness here, why do you people that know nothing about ag feel competent to comment on it, those camps disappeared a generation ago.
Those camps were just raided a year or 2 ago. They are still found in the San Diego area as far north as Fresno. Some have been found living in the farmers fields during certain times of the years. http://news.newamericamedia.org/news...21d43ab213421e

They aren't being paid under the table, as I have stated they have the same withholding as a legal, and their employer does not know who is legal and who is not, they all walk in the door with the same paperwork (why do I have to repeat myself in the same thread?)
If the farmer pays an agency a set rate per hour for a worker, how does the farmer know they have withholdings deducted since the farmer isn't paying the laborer directly? You are making contradictory claims here. If you repeat yourself enough maybe you will begin to believe in your own rhetoric that is nothing but unsubstantiated claim by you.

Three errors here,
A. They are not paid cash under the table.
B. I have told you that growers do not employ their field workers
C. Neither their employer nor the grower knows who is legal and who is illegal (why do I have to repeat myself in the same thread?).

A) How do you know they are not paid cash? You pay an agency for the worker, you have no idea if he is legal or not.
B) That's right, growers hire an agency that employs the worker, the farmer merely pays the agency. The farmer is then relieved of all wrong doing.
C) You can only speak for yourself, not the agency. But keep repeating your assumptions.

As I have stated several times, Growers do not hire their field workers Can we work on remembering that?
Don't worry, we know how those agencies work. How they pay their workers and charge them for meals, housing, transportation, etc. We also know how workers just show up (when the farmer needs them the most at harvest time) and are "employed" by many farmers, erm agencies.

Its always fun leading the rat to the trap.

Last edited by Liquid Reigns; 08-19-2012 at 10:40 PM..
 
Old 08-19-2012, 11:03 PM
 
20,611 posts, read 12,315,239 times
Reputation: 5895
Quote:
Originally Posted by .highnlite View Post
Maybe I should write a book. The rightwing whackos guide to Illegal Labor in the California Vegetable Fields.
Prove it, please.
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