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Old 08-22-2012, 04:05 PM
 
8,399 posts, read 5,112,551 times
Reputation: 2314

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Quote:
Originally Posted by suzy_q2010 View Post
But it is relevant. There is a limit to the resources of the country. We cannot support every poor person who wants to come here.



What century? Sixteenth, seventeenth, eighteenth, nineteenth, twentieth, or twenty first? As best I can tell (genealogy is a hobby) all of my ancestors have been here since the eighteenth century and earlier and came here legally under the governments that existed at the time. So how is it hypocritical to insist people come here legally under the current laws of our government? Those laws have changed as the needs of the country have changed. It is not reasonable to allow someone to buy an airline ticket, step off the plane, and expect the rights and privileges of US citizenship.



If it is a fact, provide evidence to support it. Otherwise it is just an opinion.



You are the one who is making things up. I never said that immigrants are destroying this country.

As Eleanora has pointed out to you, the majority of illegal immigrants do not have skills that would get them a green card. There will always be a pool of people who will enter illegally because they could never qualify for a green card. I know they only want better lives for themselves and their families. I know they work hard. But I am not convinced that the contributions they make exceed the resources they consume.



Which thread? Which conservatives? Is anyone who disagrees with you a conservative?



No, it is not dumb. It is irrational to allow an immigrant to take a job from a citizen and then have to pay the citizen unemployment benefits and perhaps other assistance such as food stamps and subsidized health care.



If you believe workers have no idea how much others in their companies are making, you are sadly mistaken.
I gave you a link earlier that had information showing that illegal immigration results in a lowering of the salaries of the least educated Americans, those without a high school education. If you have a source that shows otherwise, please cite it.
No, the number is not relevant. What is relevant is how many people could the economy, and local areas absorb without being hugely negatively impacted and would be a net benefit for the nation? I don't know what that number is.

Why do you attempt to argue against supply and demand. This is very very simple There is a demand to enter the nation. It is a finite number of people. From those people only a finite number can enter the nation illegally, if you increase legal immigration by a lot you will cut down on illegal immigration. This is an objective fact.

I don't know what you have written about immigrants, but certainly other conservatives have painted this pending destruction of the nation due to illegals as they call them.

If you claim you have never read apocalyptic language from fellow conservatives concerning immigration you either don't read any posts or you are being dishonest.


First, it is hypocritical for people whose ancestors came here with very few skills, to then turn around and talk only about skills and act as if an immigrant comes here not being highly skilled that the immigrant is going to ruin the nation.

I truly think this perspective of the welfare immigrant is based on the national origins of the immigrants coming to this nation.

I think many conservatives especially don't think those people from that backwards nation will work as hard to improve themselves, so in order for them to come into the nation they have to already be highly skilled, when that was never a requirement for many of the people whose families came here.

I also don't think that there is enough attention paid to how wrong those who historically have predicted the destruction of the nation because some group of immigrants came here.

Many conservatives are on that side of history. Predicting doom about some group of immigrants. It is a repeat of a repeat with much of the same rhetoric.

People don't have any idea how much their supervisor or boss makes. That is one of the reasons incomes have diverged so much. I think salary information should be made available to any employee within a company. I think knowledge would force higher compensation for workers because there would be no secrets about income.

I have seen those studies. The lowering of the wage is very slight overall. The problem in this nation is that we don't pay workers enough period, that is not the fault of immigrants and it is wrong to scapegoat them as causing the trend of stagnating wages that has been going on for 40years.

 
Old 08-22-2012, 04:17 PM
 
3,493 posts, read 2,397,164 times
Reputation: 2345
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iamme73 View Post
No, the number is not relevant. What is relevant is how many people could the economy, and local areas absorb without being hugely negatively impacted and would be a net benefit for the nation? I don't know what that number is.
There's a lot you obviously don't know about immigration.

Quote:
Why do you attempt to argue against supply and demand. This is very very simple There is a demand to enter the nation. It is a finite number of people. From those people only a finite number can enter the nation illegally, if you increase legal immigration by a lot you will cut down on illegal immigration. This is an objective fact.
There's no reason to increase to believe either of these assertions. Most illegals want to make a quick buck. They are not interested in becoming Americans.

Quote:
I don't know what you have written about immigrants, but certainly other conservatives have painted this pending destruction of the nation due to illegals as they call them.
The technical term is illegal alien whether or not you like it.

Quote:
If you claim you have never read apocalyptic language from fellow conservatives concerning immigration you either don't read any posts or you are being dishonest.
Suzy and several other posters are not conservative. You are being dishonest when you imply otherwise.


Quote:
First, it is hypocritical for people whose ancestors came here with very few skills, to then turn around and talk only about skills and act as if an immigrant comes here not being highly skilled that the immigrant is going to ruin the nation.
Still with the strawman, huh?

Most Americans are not descended from unskilled people. They have every right to object when people who have no skills demand to join our society in the middle of a recession.

Quote:
I truly think this perspective of the welfare immigrant is based on the national origins of the immigrants coming to this nation.
You should try thinking some more. Because you are wrong. Many illegals are on some form of welfare because they would be unable survive here if they were not.

Quote:
I think many conservatives especially don't think those people from that backwards nation will work as hard to improve themselves, so in order for them to come into the nation they have to already be highly skilled, when that was never a requirement for many of the people whose families came here.
Those people can improve themselves at home. They have no inherent right to come here and demand we make such improvements for them.

You keep ignoring the fact that was no welfare state when many LEGAL immigrants arrived and many such immigrants had skills we needed if it suits you. But it isn't the truth.

Quote:
I also don't think that there is enough attention paid to how wrong those who historically have predicted the destruction of the nation because some group of immigrants came here.
They did not come here during the middle of a huge recession. The only wrong history here is your own.

Quote:
Many conservatives are on that side of history. Predicting doom about some group of immigrants. It is a repeat of a repeat with much of the same rhetoric.

People don't have any idea how much their supervisor or boss makes. That is one of the reasons incomes have diverged so much. I think salary information should be made available to any employee within a company. I think knowledge would force higher compensation for workers because there would be no secrets about income.
Illegals aren't immigrants.

Quote:
I have seen those studies. The lowering of the wage is very slight overall. The problem in this nation is that we don't pay workers enough period, that is not the fault of immigrants and it is wrong to scapegoat them as causing the trend of stagnating wages that has been going on for 40years.
Illegals are scabs. They push down wages, prop up dictators, help greedy employers and then hand the bill for their destructive behavior to our poor and middle class. The problem is people like you who like to naively pretend otherwise.
 
Old 08-22-2012, 04:20 PM
 
Location: California
2,477 posts, read 1,719,222 times
Reputation: 299
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iamme73 View Post
I don't have a firm number in mind. I think US immigration policy should be first to improve our nation and secondly to improve the global economy which will help our economy. So a hard number is irrelevant.
Would our nation not improve if all unskilled were removed? $14B to GDP is a full percentage point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Iamme73 View Post
It is amazing to me how people whose families migrated to this nation where there were almost NO requirements in skills, or education.
I'd love to see all of the people who want these high standards for new immigrants admit that THEIR families would never have come here if they had to endure what we now expect of new immigrants. There is a huge amount of hypocrisy from many people.
There were education and skill requirements back then, along with health requirements. It wasn't a show up and here you go policy as you somehow think it was.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Iamme73 View Post
My honest "feeling" is that new immigrants should have the same standards for all the immigrants that mostly came from Europe in the earlier part of the century. And it would be the HEIGHT of hypocrisy for the family member of those immigrants to impose a standard that wouldn't have allowed their own family to enter this nation.
So since the standards are the same, actually they are a little less burdensome today then they were then, is it now OK to rid ourselves of unskilled illegals?
 
Old 08-22-2012, 04:22 PM
 
32,009 posts, read 14,770,092 times
Reputation: 8548
We already know how many numbers of immigrants we can allow in legally each year without negatively impacting us obviously because we have annual quotas in place. I will trust the experts that set our quotas not someone's opinion or guestimate.

Last edited by Oldglory; 08-22-2012 at 04:32 PM..
 
Old 08-22-2012, 04:26 PM
 
8,399 posts, read 5,112,551 times
Reputation: 2314
Quote:
Originally Posted by Liquid Reigns View Post
Yes, a criminal by definition is: Guilty of crime, EWI is a criminal offense. Failure to deport after order of deportation is also a crime. Staying past ones date of legal visa is an infraction easily cleared by applying for an adjustment of status.

The point is you generalize and broad brush everything and somehow think you make a point.

Your "reality" is but your opinion, which has been shown as incorrect more ways then one. That is the reality of it.

So you call anyone who breaks any law a criminal?

You keep attempting to make this about me, but it is not.

Conservatives lie about immigration. They have problem with the national origins of the immigrants that come here.

I remember when this issue heated up nationally.
I was kind of sympathetic because the town I came from rapidly changed from majority black to Mexican and many were here illegally and it was a pain how much stuffed changed in a way. I thought well we need to look at this.

I started to read all of this anti-immigrant stuff and I did some reading on the history of immigration and the things that were said, and I read about the people who were pushing this anti-immigrant garbage, and found many of them were criminals, many were in some form of hate group and I knew I wanted no part of that nonsense. Being anti-immigrant used to be the exclusive realm of white supremacist organizations.

Sadly, conservatives picked up this anti-immigrant garbage because they saw political gain in it and have made it somewhat mainstream and tried to dress it up with fancier words, but the same base gutter level ugliness is there. It is that ugliness that informs and sustains those who are on this anti-immigrant mess.

It is why when they discuss immigration, they can only discuss the negative, they can only portray millions of immigrants as lazy takers, as anti-american as a drain, as needing to go saying immigrant organizations are racist, etc.

Then to read conservative politicos attempt to give those garbage sentiments validity by making some minor point like, well actually lower skilled immigrants "may" have a slightly negative impact on the economy, and saying it is reasonable to want to control the border as if that is up for debate, or claim it is reasonable to not want criminals in here as if that is up for debate. They do this to hide the ugliness.

Quite frankly it is a disgusting spectacle.
 
Old 08-22-2012, 04:37 PM
 
Location: California
2,477 posts, read 1,719,222 times
Reputation: 299
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iamme73 View Post
So you call anyone who breaks any law a criminal?

You keep attempting to make this about me, but it is not.

Conservatives lie about immigration. They have problem with the national origins of the immigrants that come here.

I remember when this issue heated up nationally.
I was kind of sympathetic because the town I came from rapidly changed from majority black to Mexican and many were here illegally and it was a pain how much stuffed changed in a way. I thought well we need to look at this.

I started to read all of this anti-immigrant stuff and I did some reading on the history of immigration and the things that were said, and I read about the people who were pushing this anti-immigrant garbage, and found many of them were criminals, many were in some form of hate group and I knew I wanted no part of that nonsense. Being anti-immigrant used to be the exclusive realm of white supremacist organizations.

Sadly, conservatives picked up this anti-immigrant garbage because they saw political gain in it and have made it somewhat mainstream and tried to dress it up with fancier words, but the same base gutter level ugliness is there. It is that ugliness that informs and sustains those who are on this anti-immigrant mess.

It is why when they discuss immigration, they can only discuss the negative, they can only portray millions of immigrants as lazy takers, as anti-american as a drain, as needing to go saying immigrant organizations are racist, etc.

Then to read conservative politicos attempt to give those garbage sentiments validity by making some minor point like, well actually lower skilled immigrants "may" have a slightly negative impact on the economy, and saying it is reasonable to want to control the border as if that is up for debate, or claim it is reasonable to not want criminals in here as if that is up for debate. They do this to hide the ugliness.

Quite frankly it is a disgusting spectacle.
If they break a law (EWI; do not deport after order of deportation, knowingly use false or forged documents to work, etc), yes. If they break a policy (fail to apply to stay beyond I-94 departure date), no. you must first distinguish between the 2 as they are very different. Basic Law 101.

But it is about you, and your claims, that you associate and project onto "conservatives".

They do? I see you claiming that, I don't see that in the economic data. I prefer the economic data over your ignorant opinion, sorry.

Again you resort to association based on bigotry shown towards earlier immigrants. You use this to justify your claims towards "conservatives", yet you fail to recognize that actual economic data that is agreed by all the top economists of the nation. Economically, you have no argument against "conservatives", so your only argument is a moral one based on your linking and interpretation of past feelings towards immigrants. What you fail in understanding about history is, it was their own that migrated before them that didn't want competition from those like them.

Is the control of our own nation unreasonable? Is it not reasonable to not want criminals to enter here? Even back in the day criminals were not allowed in. The ugliness? based on your moral opinion?

Last edited by Liquid Reigns; 08-22-2012 at 05:05 PM..
 
Old 08-22-2012, 05:32 PM
 
32,009 posts, read 14,770,092 times
Reputation: 8548
Quote:
Originally Posted by Liquid Reigns View Post
If they break a law (EWI; do not deport after order of deportation, knowingly use false or forged documents to work, etc), yes. If they break a policy (fail to apply to stay beyond I-94 departure date), no. you must first distinguish between the 2 as they are very different. Basic Law 101.

But it is about you, and your claims, that you associate and project onto "conservatives".

They do? I see you claiming that, I don't see that in the economic data. I prefer the economic data over your ignorant opinion, sorry.

Again you resort to association based on bigotry shown towards earlier immigrants. You use this to justify your claims towards "conservatives", yet you fail to recognize that actual economic data that is agreed by all the top economists of the nation. Economically, you have no argument against "conservatives", so your only argument is a moral one based on your linking and interpretation of past feelings towards immigrants. What you fail in understanding about history is, it was their own that migrated before them that didn't want competition from those like them.

Is the control of our own nation unreasonable? Is it not reasonable to not want criminals to enter here? Even back in the day criminals were not allowed in. The ugliness? based on your moral opinion?
I note that this person didn't distinguish between a legal immigrant and illegal one in the post you are replying to. She just calls them all "immigrants". There is a vast difference between the two groups.
 
Old 08-22-2012, 05:36 PM
 
Location: OCEAN BREEZES AND VIEWS SAN CLEMENTE
19,899 posts, read 15,375,727 times
Reputation: 6451
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iamme73 View Post
So you call anyone who breaks any law a criminal?

You keep attempting to make this about me, but it is not.

Conservatives lie about immigration. They have problem with the national origins of the immigrants that come here.

I remember when this issue heated up nationally.
I was kind of sympathetic because the town I came from rapidly changed from majority black to Mexican and many were here illegally and it was a pain how much stuffed changed in a way. I thought well we need to look at this.

I started to read all of this anti-immigrant stuff and I did some reading on the history of immigration and the things that were said, and I read about the people who were pushing this anti-immigrant garbage, and found many of them were criminals, many were in some form of hate group and I knew I wanted no part of that nonsense. Being anti-immigrant used to be the exclusive realm of white supremacist organizations.

Sadly, conservatives picked up this anti-immigrant garbage because they saw political gain in it and have made it somewhat mainstream and tried to dress it up with fancier words, but the same base gutter level ugliness is there. It is that ugliness that informs and sustains those who are on this anti-immigrant mess.

It is why when they discuss immigration, they can only discuss the negative, they can only portray millions of immigrants as lazy takers, as anti-american as a drain, as needing to go saying immigrant organizations are racist, etc.

Then to read conservative politicos attempt to give those garbage sentiments validity by making some minor point like, well actually lower skilled immigrants "may" have a slightly negative impact on the economy, and saying it is reasonable to want to control the border as if that is up for debate, or claim it is reasonable to not want criminals in here as if that is up for debate. They do this to hide the ugliness.

Quite frankly it is a disgusting spectacle.

What the hell do you call a person who breaks the law, a goodfellow! most of us don't.

Don't talk to me about true facts of immigration, i knew a couple people who worked the borders, and do not even get me started here. I heard stories, i shall not repeat.

Our true borders are a freaking mess, and unsafe. Illegals being in this Country, is nothing but a negative impact on our Country and communites. And a huge burden and money pit.
Oh by the way the disgusting spectacle, are those people who seem to think there is nothing wrong with those lawbreakers, who illegally enter our borders.

The disgusting trash enough left behind, would drive any sane person nuts.

Most caring Americans are not part of any organization, the organization they care about is this Country, and seeing to it, that those that wish to become Americans or live in this Country, do it dang it the way our ancestors did.
 
Old 08-22-2012, 05:37 PM
 
Location: California
2,477 posts, read 1,719,222 times
Reputation: 299
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oldglory View Post
I note that this person didn't distinguish between a legal immigrant and illegal one in the post you are replying to. She just calls them all "immigrants". There is a vast difference between the two groups.
I think its because she gets her information from Chicano Nationalists like Ojeda who make claims of economics when they aren't versed in them, yet dismisses actual economists that show Ojeda as incorrect. Go figure!
 
Old 08-22-2012, 05:57 PM
 
5,949 posts, read 6,394,626 times
Reputation: 5494
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iamme73 View Post
It doesn't GREATLY expand immigration. Man, you stay trying to make irrelevant points that don't mean anything.

My point is this for the 100th time. Conservatives are lying about immigration when they say they have no problem with legal immigration only illegal immigration.

My contention is they don't want legal immigration greatly expanded because they think too many people from the wrong kinds of nations are coming here.

I have had conservatives engage me and basically this is their position and your position as well. Everything else is just running in circles lying and pretending otherwise.
Conservatives aren't lying. Show stats where Americans want to GREATLY increase limits and that it's just conservatives who don't want the increase.
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