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Old 08-23-2012, 03:15 PM
 
7,150 posts, read 8,504,989 times
Reputation: 3806

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oldglory View Post
I didn't say that you said that 80% of illegals are working in agriculture. You said that 80% of workers in the agricultural industry are illegal immigrants. Don't you understand the difference? I proved you wrong. There is no need to question my intelligence ethier. It was you that couldn't comprehend what I said.

You said that agriculture is suffering from a lack of workers and you said it was because of tighter border controls. Well yes, illegal immigrants just might fear that. However, why aren't they applying for the H-2A visas instead? That way they would have no fear of an immigration violation. No, the answer to that question is not as plain as the nose on my face and I do have a full brain.
No. You did not prove me wrong at all. Your PEW statistics are exactly a breakdown of what I just said: they represent how many illegals are working in various professions across the country. That is not the same as how much field work in California is performed by illegals. This is really very elementary stuff. Go get help if you can't grasp the simple difference.

The answer to the H-2A visa question IS as plain as the nose on your face. But here, think this through:
"The H-2A temporary agricultural program establishes a means for agricultural employers who anticipate a shortage of domestic workers to bring nonimmigrant foreign workers to the U.S. to perform agricultural labor or services of a temporary or seasonal nature.[1"
Do you read any key words? Such as "nonimmigrant" and "temporary" and "seasonal nature"?
Now apply those words to California's agriculture -- which is what we are discussing -- and which IS NOT SEASONAL ... it is year-round, full-time labor ... requiring year-round full-time workers to live year-round full-time in the communities where they work year-round full-time.

These are not "campesinos".

I'm done ... you all need spoon feeding.

 
Old 08-23-2012, 03:19 PM
 
31,984 posts, read 14,763,638 times
Reputation: 8535
Quote:
Originally Posted by nullgeo View Post
Firstly -- I am not unaware at all. The stay was granted because Obama has the discretionary power to do so. If you don't like that is fine with me. Lots of folks don't like it. You can all get together and change the powers granted to the President.

Further, if you wish to deport all illegals, find the funding to identify them and deport them. But before you do, be sure that the agricultural industries have substitutes. This country can't afford to lose the productivity. I am all in favor of you finding and implementing a solution for that portion of the labor market. Hopefully your new programs to find, detain, deport and replace will cost less than the cost of allowing the illegals to stay as they are.

I don't know how many have committed the felony of using false id. And neither do you. And who says they are going to get a pass for that? You have to catch them in the crime, detain, and prosecute -- and then incarcerate. Very expensive, time-consuming stuff. Money and effort better spent going after tax-evaders and Wall St. crimes. Tax-evaders and Wall St. investment banks can actually afford to pay for their crimes in much needed dollars to offset the costs.
I haven't suggested that we round up all illegal immigrants and deport them. What I do suggest is that they get deported as they are found regardless of whether or not they have a felony conviction. That would be within what our laws dictate.

Funny, how Obama said a few months ago that he couldn't do what he did by himself without congress' approval but he did it anyway. My biggest problem with it is giving them work permits. I doubt that Obama had that authority and why would he do that when jobs are scarce?

You keep going back to the crop picking argument when I supplied you with the stats from Pew that stated that only 3% of illegal immigrants are picking crops. Overall, deporting illegal immigrants will be a cost plus for our nation because we will have our jobs back and our tax coffers less tapped supporting illegal immigrants.

I may be wrong but I believe Obama said that these DACA applicants will not have ID theft held against them. I believe someone in this forum stated that. Perhaps, they will post it again. Moving the goal posts and changing the subject to American tax evaders or any Wall Street criminals does not change the fact that illegal immigrants are a drain on our economy also. As I have already stated I would like all lawbreakers prosecuted. You seem to be giving illegal immigrants a pass though and they aren't even supposed to be in this country.
 
Old 08-23-2012, 03:25 PM
 
31,984 posts, read 14,763,638 times
Reputation: 8535
Quote:
Originally Posted by nullgeo View Post
No. You did not prove me wrong at all. Your PEW statistics are exactly a breakdown of what I just said: they represent how many illegals are working in various professions across the country. That is not the same as how much field work in California is performed by illegals. This is really very elementary stuff. Go get help if you can't grasp the simple difference.

The answer to the H-2A visa question IS as plain as the nose on your face. But here, think this through:
"The H-2A temporary agricultural program establishes a means for agricultural employers who anticipate a shortage of domestic workers to bring nonimmigrant foreign workers to the U.S. to perform agricultural labor or services of a temporary or seasonal nature.[1"
Do you read any key words? Such as "nonimmigrant" and "temporary" and "seasonal nature"?
Now apply those words to California's agriculture -- which is what we are discussing -- and which IS NOT SEASONAL ... it is year-round, full-time labor ... requiring year-round full-time workers to live year-round full-time in the communities where they work year-round full-time.

These are not "campesinos".

I'm done ... you all need spoon feeding.
You never backed up your claims about Calif. with a credible source. I am done also because now you are becoming beligerant.

Last edited by Oldglory; 08-23-2012 at 03:39 PM..
 
Old 08-23-2012, 03:25 PM
 
3,493 posts, read 2,396,704 times
Reputation: 2345
Farmers used to argue they couldn't by without slavery. Should we bring that back as well? Or maybe we should tell employers that if you can't stay in business without resorting to breaking the law maybe you should consider another line of work?
 
Old 08-23-2012, 03:27 PM
 
Location: California
2,477 posts, read 1,718,809 times
Reputation: 299
Quote:
Originally Posted by nullgeo View Post
No. You did not prove me wrong at all. Your PEW statistics are exactly a breakdown of what I just said: they represent how many illegals are working in various professions across the country. That is not the same as how much field work in California is performed by illegals. This is really very elementary stuff. Go get help if you can't grasp the simple difference.

The answer to the H-2A visa question IS as plain as the nose on your face. But here, think this through:
"The H-2A temporary agricultural program establishes a means for agricultural employers who anticipate a shortage of domestic workers to bring nonimmigrant foreign workers to the U.S. to perform agricultural labor or services of a temporary or seasonal nature.[1"
Do you read any key words? Such as "nonimmigrant" and "temporary" and "seasonal nature"?
Now apply those words to California's agriculture -- which is what we are discussing -- and which IS NOT SEASONAL ... it is year-round, full-time labor ... requiring year-round full-time workers to live year-round full-time in the communities where they work year-round full-time.

These are not "campisinos".

I'm done ... you all need spoon feeding.
It is NOT year-round and full-time. Crops can only be picked at harvest which ranges from a couple weeks to maybe 6 weeks, the bulk of labor is only needed then. There are a number of different crops throughout the state, not all in one local. These agencies, that provide the workers, are not going to constantly move their workers around the state to harvest crops. Many other workers are not going to chase down the next crop to stay working, living out of their car. Is it the farmers fault for relying on these agencies or is it their own fault for not using the visa themselves?

Yes, the H2A is a non-immigrant and temp visa (10 month issue renewable for up to 3 years), so what!; most illegals are economic refugees only wanting to come here to make enough money to go back on. What's your point? If they are allowed to immigrate on immigrant visas do you really believe they would work the fields?

Spoon feeding? I guess that goes with the chip on your shoulder, huh?

Last edited by Liquid Reigns; 08-23-2012 at 03:43 PM..
 
Old 08-23-2012, 04:32 PM
 
31,984 posts, read 14,763,638 times
Reputation: 8535
Quote:
Originally Posted by Liquid Reigns View Post
It is NOT year-round and full-time. Crops can only be picked at harvest which ranges from a couple weeks to maybe 6 weeks, the bulk of labor is only needed then. There are a number of different crops throughout the state, not all in one local. These agencies, that provide the workers, are not going to constantly move their workers around the state to harvest crops. Many other workers are not going to chase down the next crop to stay working, living out of their car. Is it the farmers fault for relying on these agencies or is it their own fault for not using the visa themselves?

Yes, the H2A is a non-immigrant and temp visa (10 month issue renewable for up to 3 years), so what!; most illegals are economic refugees only wanting to come here to make enough money to go back on. What's your point? If they are allowed to immigrate on immigrant visas do you really believe they would work the fields?

Spoon feeding? I guess that goes with the chip on your shoulder, huh?
My question would be after providing proof that only 3% of illegal immigrants are picking crops then why would it be any different in Calif.? I realize that we have a large agricultural economy but why would that number change drastically to 80%?

I would just like to add that the article from the Huffington Post was from June of last year also. From the article -

"They say they want to hire legal workers and U.S. citizens, but that it's nearly impossible, given the relatively low wages and back-breaking work."

Well perhaps the wages should be raised then. Since it is back breaking work then mechanizing would be the best solution. I don't find hiring illegal immigrants at low pay and putting their health in jeapardy (slave labor) as a viable solution either especially since hiring them is against the law.

Last edited by Oldglory; 08-23-2012 at 04:50 PM..
 
Old 08-23-2012, 06:00 PM
 
Location: California
2,477 posts, read 1,718,809 times
Reputation: 299
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oldglory View Post
My question would be after providing proof that only 3% of illegal immigrants are picking crops then why would it be any different in Calif.? I realize that we have a large agricultural economy but why would that number change drastically to 80%?

I would just like to add that the article from the Huffington Post was from June of last year also. From the article -

"They say they want to hire legal workers and U.S. citizens, but that it's nearly impossible, given the relatively low wages and back-breaking work."

Well perhaps the wages should be raised then. Since it is back breaking work then mechanizing would be the best solution. I don't find hiring illegal immigrants at low pay and putting their health in jeapardy (slave labor) as a viable solution either especially since hiring them is against the law.
I would say that 3% of the illegals in CA are probably picking crops and of the field workers, 80% are probably illegal. I've also read 57% of total CA farm labor is illegal. http://agcenter.ucdavis.edu/AgDoc/Ca...rForceNAWS.pdf
Quote:
More than half of the farmworkers in California had no work authorization (57%), 10 percent were U.S. citizens and 33 percent were legal permanent residents. One-third (33%) of all California farmworkers were migrant, having traveled more than 75 miles to obtain a job in U.S. agriculture. Among foreign-born workers, more than a third (35%) were migrant.
This part negates nullgeo all together
Quote:
Sixty-one percent of California farmworkers had seasonal employment while 20 percent were employed year-round. Nineteen percent of farmworkers did not know whether their current job was year-round or seasonal.
I like this part that nullifies .highnlite's claim in the other topic
Quote:
An estimated 36 percent of the nation’s farmworkers were employed in California. Nearly two-thirds of them (63%) were employed by the growers themselves rather than by farm labor contractors. They worked mostly in fruit and nut crops (46%) and vegetables (40%), and the majority performed pre-harvest (21%) or harvest (38%) tasks. On average, farmworkers in California had spent 11 years in agricultural employment.
But then what do I know.

And they wonder why Citizens won't work in the fields and they are having a hard time finding workers: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/0..._n_923941.html
Quote:
isntead of receiving at least the $8 per hour minimum wage under California law, most farm labor is paid at “piece rate,” or “contracted.” “This system is [designed] to increase worker productivity while reducing pay for working too slowly,” said Luis Magana, an activist with the American Friends Service Committee of Stockton, Calif. “For example, onion producers pay 80 cents per person (per bag or sack), so a family of three can earn $60 a day; divide that by three [people] and it’s a mere $20.”
“On the ‘table,’ the [grape producers] pay 45 cents for each one,” Santiago said. The “table” is actually just a large sheet of paper where the laborer places the grapes collected to dry beneath the sunlight, after which they are processed and cleaned, transforming them into flavorful, aromatic raisins. Field laborers must work intensely to collect sufficient “tables” for them to earn a decent wage.
A field laborer can collect about 12 “tables” an hour – in other words $5.40 an hour. That too is less than the legal $8 minimum wage, and laborers are not paid overtime.

Last edited by Liquid Reigns; 08-23-2012 at 06:19 PM..
 
Old 08-23-2012, 06:26 PM
 
31,984 posts, read 14,763,638 times
Reputation: 8535
Quote:
Originally Posted by Liquid Reigns View Post
I would say that 3% of the illegals in CA are probably picking crops and of the field workers, 80% are probably illegal. I've also read 57% of total farm labor is illegal. http://agcenter.ucdavis.edu/AgDoc/Ca...rForceNAWS.pdf
This part negates nullgeo all together I like this part that nullifies .highnlite's claim in the other topic But then what do I know.

And they wonder why Citizens won't work in the fields and they are having a hard time finding workers: California Farm Workers Stuck Between Poverty And Neglect, Suffer From Low Wages And Lack Of Organization
Thanks for the info. A lot of this would explain why even illegal immigrants aren't as willing to work in the fields anymore. It is backbreaking work out in the sun all day for very little pay. With so many of them doing other jobs in our country (97%) for probably more money and less hardship the word gets around and they move on to those other types of jobs instead. They are more permanent rather than seasonal also. Not as much fear of getting caught and deported anymore either.

It also explains why the H-2A visas aren't used as much as they could be. It is cheaper to hire illegal immigrants instead. I know that they are entitled to housing and some benefits also under those visas which is an added expense.

Either wages for this type of work needs to be raised or more mechanizing could be the solution. I am willing to pay more for my produce to see that workers are legal, getting paid fairly and not working under inhumane conditions.
 
Old 08-23-2012, 07:09 PM
 
31,984 posts, read 14,763,638 times
Reputation: 8535
Quote:
Originally Posted by Liquid Reigns View Post
Sorry, Classic Liberal. Besides I work for growers, usually removing their old orchards in N. California. I actually talk to some of their "workers".
I just visited the Western Growers website. They use the term anti-immigrant and denounce the passage of an e-verify bill. Pretty much a tell all of what their agenda is, isn't it?
 
Old 08-23-2012, 08:10 PM
 
3,186 posts, read 5,492,043 times
Reputation: 1818
This is as stupid as giving credit and credit cards to people locked up in prison there for stealing. How can they get a license when they dont even have a permanent name.How can they be held accountable for the bad driving they may do if they dont even have a valid name? If one causes an accident and kills your family WHO are you going to take to court. Remember illegals dont have real identities, just fake names and addresses and lies to go along with it.....Thats what illegals do They still going to run like hell away from any accident they cause before the cops get there......They just want a license so they can use it for ID to get other ID.....ID they dont have a right to.
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