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Old 10-05-2007, 10:21 AM
 
17,279 posts, read 24,965,630 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by macmeal View Post
Your first four points are rather obvious--there's little more to say on this.
But is it REALLY so obvious? I have read several posts in the past few days asserting that the United States has "plenty of space" to take on millions of more people, who will grow exponentially through the magic of reproduction of the lower classes.


I'm a pretty liberal guy, and one of the main reasons I am AGAINST illegal immigration is because I don't believe that taking on millions of poor people is a good way to maintain adequate social services. Maybe if we got rid of the nanny state I'd be more sympathetic to illegal immigration.

Importing poverty is not a good thing, and I defy any illegal supporter to prove it otherwise. Half the jobs illegals take - like nannys and maids, are unessential anyway, and if the labor pool were to dry up, I'm not going to cry for rich housewives who now have to take care of their own house and kids.



The rest of your post is excellent, however, regarding the destruction of the Middle Class, which is being leached dry from the top AND bottom.
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Old 10-05-2007, 11:43 AM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,615,066 times
Reputation: 2983
Quote:
Originally Posted by NewToCA View Post
This thread is an excellent example of why I never post in the immigration discussion area. I don't see much of a debate here, more of a beating. It is hard to fathom any legitimate position in support of illegals. They may bring some marginal economic benefit, but at too great a cost, and the cost may actually exceed the benefit. Even the "experts" can't really determine if they are more of an overall cost or benefit economically.

Obviously, the only folks who benefit are those who can hire these folks at much lower wages than they would pay to actual citizens, and this is offset by the loss of job opportunities and lower wages for work overall. Then you add the peripheral cost such as criminals, medical care and social services, and the debate looks like a slaughter to me.

I believe the vast majority of these folks are diligent and hard working, but they need to only be able to come here through a specifically measured (in numbers) and legal process, assuring us that we reduce the number of problem folks we bring in.

So in summary, I don't see any reasonable debate point in support of illegals allowed to continue to work in this country, and favor fining employers significantly for hiring them. Dry up the employment source, and the motivation will largely disappear. And, of course, allowing their kids born in the US to be citizens makes no sense either.
This is an excellent point, one I've used before in conversation but you stated it quite well. It takes a huge amount of "bending over backward" and ignoring a large number of facts, to be able to present this as any sort of a "debate". It shows how far down the road we've gone in terms of political correctness. It's really just a plain case of trespassing, and nothing more.

I've often been amazed at those who DO attempt to justify illegal immigration, and are unable to see this for what it is. I have no doubt that if these folks returned home some night to find a family had taken up residence in their "extra" bedroom, or in their back yard, they wouldn't spend a lot of time "debating" the situation. They'd go straight to the phone, call the police, and demand something be done about it.

Somehow, this is a hard idea to get across to people. "Our" country, in many respects, is "our" home. Closing the doors and windows of your home doesn't make you mean or unkind.........
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Old 10-05-2007, 11:53 AM
 
Location: South Bay Native
13,050 posts, read 21,163,651 times
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^^^wouldn't it be great if we include the NIMBYs with those being deported?
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Old 10-06-2007, 11:40 AM
 
Location: Anchorage, Alaska (most of the time)
1,222 posts, read 3,286,531 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DontH8Me View Post
^^^wouldn't it be great if we include the NIMBYs with those being deported?
This is the second time I read this. What is an NIMBY?
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Old 10-06-2007, 11:48 AM
 
Location: Journey's End
10,189 posts, read 24,465,817 times
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Sweden, I have no idea what a NIMBY is but I have a question for you, and a comment about immigration.

My question: Has Sweden experienced a large influx of foreign nationals, and if so how has it impacted the country?

My comment: In addition to the issues raised by the OP, and I am not against immigration in general terms, but against a free-flowing incoming population without any controls, I observed in more homogeneous countries (the Netherlands, France, Great Britain, and elsewhere) that an increasing number of foreign nationals is literally changing the social fabric of these countries.

In the US, we always had a heterogeneous population, although we don't always admit this, and blending in, or adaptation has become an art.

This newer wave of immigration differs solely on its legal standing, or at least it is how I view it from outside the box.
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Old 10-06-2007, 11:52 AM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,615,066 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sweden View Post
This is the second time I read this. What is an NIMBY?
NIMBY stands for the expression "Not In My Back Yard"---(not sure we're using it correctly here).....
It refers to the hypocrisy of most people, who, for example, might see the need for a new prison, or an industrial plant, or an airport, and agree that these things would benefit society---but do not want these things near THEIR house.....in other words, "Build it--we need it...but I don't want it near ME. I'd rather see it near YOUR house".... very human trait, perhaps stronger here in America with our great individualism.....
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Old 10-06-2007, 11:53 AM
 
537 posts, read 312,205 times
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NIMBY = Not In My Back Yard
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Old 10-06-2007, 12:09 PM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,615,066 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ontheroad View Post
Sweden, I have no idea what a NIMBY is but I have a question for you, and a comment about immigration.

This newer wave of immigration differs solely on its legal standing, or at least it is how I view it from outside the box.
I'd beg to differ with you on this. Equally important to the legal aspect, I think, is the psychological aspect. Americans are just like any other human beings--we're all "suckers" for even a SMALL amount of approval and gratitude. In former times, the unwritten "code" of society was that "we" took in the bedraggled masses ("Them"), and "we", in our generosity, gave "them" a place to start a new life. In turn, "they" were grateful, and frequently, it was the old "foreigner" down the block who flew the largest American flag on the 4th of July. He was GRATEFUL for his new country. Everyone sensed that this was the "way it was supposed to be". and it made sense.

Now we're told that "we" aren't entitled to any gratitude at all--after all, it's not "our" country, anyway, since we're "all just immigrants" (it's incredible to me that we still hear this over and over on this forum). Since it's not "our" country, then "they" (the new immigrants) really owe us no gratitude at all (and, of course, many of them are perfectly willing to act in kind). On top of this, the new immigrants not only feel no sense of gratitude (because "we" don't require it)--they are actually quite resentful that "they" can't enjoy the full rights of citizenship....and have succeeded in making many of "us" feel GUILTY about this !!...incredible, but true.

It's little wonder to me that there's a serious mood of resentment over this situation. No one would appreciate this sort of situation, whether coming from guests in one's home, or immigrants in one's country.
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Old 10-06-2007, 12:23 PM
 
Location: Journey's End
10,189 posts, read 24,465,817 times
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So many of the comments each of us make is from our POV, and experience and I don't doubt others experiences, and can only share my own.

I haven't been an environment where the "new" immigrants have shown disrespect or have exhibited the qualities you describe--except for rare exceptions.

I worked in social services, public health and encountered a large number of foreign nationals (NYC) and for the most part they seemed to strive to make a living, raise a family and fit it--except perhaps for language. I do have some issues with this insistence that I either speak that language, and it could be one of 37 other languages, or find an interpreter.

In NYC, immigration, although very high, seems to be less of an issue because the newer immigrants disappear in such a large, spread out City. I also knew several advocates for individual groups of immigrants, which made the incoming immigrants, and the existing community, mesh more easily because of their positive intervention. One such advocate was a female colleague with a license to practice medicine. She worked closely with a growing Mexican population (about 15 years ago) and walked them through the systems, and provided them with health care and advice.

Of course we have as many sobering stories about the "irate" demanding immigrant, but it is a pity we can't distinguish between the obvious offenders and those that make a sincere effort.

Overall, I would prefer legalized immigration to be monitored more carefully, and judiciously.


Quote:
Originally Posted by macmeal View Post
I'd beg to differ with you on this. Equally important to the legal aspect, I think, is the psychological aspect. Americans are just like any other human beings--we're all "suckers" for even a SMALL amount of approval and gratitude. In former times, the unwritten "code" of society was that "we" took in the bedraggled masses ("Them"), and "we", in our generosity, gave "them" a place to start a new life. In turn, "they" were grateful, and frequently, it was the old "foreigner" down the block who flew the largest American flag on the 4th of July. He was GRATEFUL for his new country. Everyone sensed that this was the "way it was supposed to be". and it made sense.

Now we're told that "we" aren't entitled to any gratitude at all--after all, it's not "our" country, anyway, since we're "all just immigrants" (it's incredible to me that we still hear this over and over on this forum). Since it's not "our" country, then "they" (the new immigrants) really owe us no gratitude at all (and, of course, many of them are perfectly willing to act in kind). On top of this, the new immigrants not only feel no sense of gratitude (because "we" don't require it)--they are actually quite resentful that "they" can't enjoy the full rights of citizenship....and have succeeded in making many of "us" feel GUILTY about this !!...incredible, but true.

It's little wonder to me that there's a serious mood of resentment over this situation. No one would appreciate this sort of situation, whether coming from guests in one's home, or immigrants in one's country.
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