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Old 09-02-2012, 06:06 PM
 
31,698 posts, read 14,614,583 times
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Did I miss something or wasn't it suggested that "Ned" apply under DACA to be able to remain here and work here? I don't recall usuario making any comments about that. Another thing is why would "Ned" not know as an adult that a SS card is necessary to get a job here since he thought he was a citizen? He had all kinds of American friends and was supposedly completely Americanized and went to school here. Surely he couldn't have lived here all those years and not wonder where his SS card is and what the number is. How did he communicate with his parents? He ate with them and slept in their home for many years. Hmm. What language does an 18 month old till school age know and speak other than the language taught in the home? Too many holes in this story.
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Old 09-02-2012, 06:11 PM
 
Location: Maryland
15,179 posts, read 15,824,744 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by usuario View Post
Personally I know of many immigrants who do not speak their parents' languages, and whose parents do not speak English. The fact that they are from Asia and not Mexico doesn't make my point any less relevant.
Children generally learn their rudimentary language skills from their parents. After all, as infants and toddlers their parents are the first to communicate with them. Please explain how these children managed to be born into a family, heard their parents speak to them on a daily basis, yet did not learn the language spoken by their parents. Did these children not speak a language prior to entering kindergarten?
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Old 09-02-2012, 06:17 PM
 
Location: Maryland
15,179 posts, read 15,824,744 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oldglory View Post
Did I miss something or wasn't it suggested that "Ned" apply under DACA to be able to remain here and work here? I don't recall usuario making any comments about that. Another thing is why would "Ned" not know as an adult that a SS card is necessary to get a job here since he thought he was a citizen? He had all kinds of American friends and was supposedly completely Americanized and went to school here. Surely he couldn't have lived here all those years and not wonder where his SS card is and what the number is. How did he communicate with his parents? He ate with them and slept in their home for many years. Hmm. What language does an 18 month old till school age know and speak other than the language taught in the home? Too many holes in this story.
Exactly! I first spoke English because that's the language my parents spoke. How strange that these children never learned the language spoken by their parents.
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Old 09-02-2012, 06:46 PM
 
47,576 posts, read 58,761,562 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by usuario View Post
You are really good with the strawmen. Ned never said that Americans should care about illegals' needs. He just found out he was illegal and is talking to his American friend, or guidance counselor, or the family counsellor he's been going to to deal with the emotional crap his family is in. These are the only people who he wants to take care of him right now.



Answer the question. The situation is quite real and is the whole reason why the DREAM Act has provisions for illegals who want to go to college, who were brought to the U.S. when they were young kids. Personally I know of many immigrants who do not speak their parents' languages, and whose parents do not speak English. The fact that they are from Asia and not Mexico doesn't make my point any less relevant. They are certainly NOT dumb because they were in many of the same classes I was in in high school. And please tell me where this secret government department is to collect free health care. I want to pretend to be illegal and get some free healthcare, welfare, and food stamps myself!
This is where your scenario gets very weak.

If Carlos' parents can't speak English and Spanish is their native language, how would they have communicated with him? How did they tell him to get dressed in the morning, come to dinner? Same thing if the parents spoke Mandarin, Carlos would have first heard and learned Mandarin.

Besides -- didn't the parents come here as adults? Why didn't the fact that the language is different than their own affect them in any way but it would affect these kids if they were to return home as adults? See -- it doesn't make much sense when you realize how many millions of people had no trouble coming here where they didn't know the language but the reverse cannot happen.

If Carlos is from Mexico and goes home, he will quickly absorb the language -- immersion works best, same would happen if he goes to China if he's from there. He would become immersed and having heard the language all his life from his parents, it would be amazing how quickly he would relearn it.

It's not hard at all in Mexico because if you really want to hear some English, you can go to a resort town like Cancun, but Carlos would be at an ideal age to learn the language of his country. He'd be surprised by how much he remembers. A Spanish-English dictionary would be good to have -- and he has time to brush up on some of those essentials like "donde esta el bano", "da me la cuenta por favor".

Now say we have another example "Neal" who has found out his parents have been robbing banks and he's worried his life is going to change in some ways. They may be headed to prison -- but is he going to be able to keep all the proceeds of their crimes? He wants to after all -- he's become quite used to having new cars, nice restaurant meals, fabulous vacations. Is it fair for Neal to have to face a life of having less? All because his parents but he didn't commit any crimes himself?

And it turns out Debbie the one Ned has his eyes on is the daughter of workplace embezzlers. Now her whole future is possibly going to be changed because her parents have been caught and they owe over a million so it looks like prison time. There goes Debbie's college --- or should she expect that she should not have to face a single change in her circumstances? After all it was her parents who did bad, not her.
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Old 09-02-2012, 06:58 PM
 
3,493 posts, read 2,387,488 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by usuario View Post
You are really good with the strawmen.
I am not the one who set up a preposterous scenario in which in a guy who has parents who don't even speak English a) does not learn Spanish and b) presumes his parents are legal immigrants even though even most legal immigrants speak English.

You are.

What kind of human being doesn't speak his parent's language?



Quote:
Ned never said that Americans should care about illegals' needs. He just found out he was illegal and is talking to his American friend, or guidance counselor, or the family counsellor he's been going to to deal with the emotional crap his family is in. These are the only people who he wants to take care of him right now.
You've made your own position very clear. His family's "emotional crap" is of their own doing not ours.


Quote:
Answer the question.
Why? Because you said so?



Nah.

Quote:
The situation is quite real and is the whole reason why the DREAM Act has provisions for illegals who want to go to college, who were brought to the U.S. when they were young kids.
People who don't speak their parent's language are idiots. People who presume their parents are Americans when they don't even speak English are doubly so. The DREAM act is an insult to every foreign student and legal American. It is nothing more than vile pandering to an ethnic group in the name of racism.

Quote:
Personally I know of many immigrants who do not speak their parents' languages, and whose parents do not speak English.
That makes no sense at all. How can you grow up with your parents and not be able to speak their langauge? It's almost literally impossible for a child not to know the language they are brought up in. I think some people are lying to you. How sad to be so gullible!


Quote:
The fact that they are from Asia and not Mexico doesn't make my point any less relevant. They are certainly NOT dumb because they were in many of the same classes I was in in high school. And please tell me where this secret government department is to collect free health care. I want to pretend to be illegal and get some free healthcare, welfare, and food stamps myself!
I don't care where they are from. They are illegal. Their problems are not America's problems. They are the fault of their arrogant parents. They and their parents can go home. Ad if you want to free health care then pretend you don't speak English, show up in an ER with a common name and a fake address and then don't pay your bills.

If you want free welfare and food stamps give birth to a few anchors and then feel free to collect $300 bucks a month in free food.

This illegal is whining we stopped letting him do so in Kansas:

Kansas slashes food aid for children of illegal immigrants

Quote:
Pedro’s family received nearly $300 a month in food stamps. Enough to buy milk, eggs and meat, fruit and yogurt. Now, they get nothing. Neither do hundreds of other Kansas families who, like Pedro’s, are a mix of undocumented immigrants and U.S. citizens.
This is one of the reason people hate illegals so much. Not only do they think they're above our laws, they think they are entitled to demand money from us.

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Old 09-02-2012, 10:22 PM
 
Location: California
2,477 posts, read 1,713,918 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by usuario View Post
What's the best thing to do and when should you do it?
Finish high school and graduate. Go to your consul and have your parents get your documents from your home nation between now and then. Obtain a passport from your consul once you have the proper paperwork, ASAP. Apply for colleges in your home nation or in other nations. Attend college in your home nation, or elsewhere, and apply for a student visa to return here after a year or so (Who knows, you might just like your motherland - this would be no different than any other college kid venturing into the world). Hell, you could even apply to go to college in Europe or Canada. Do everything you can to be able to qualify for a visa in the USA to return here if you choose.

I wouldn't limit myself to having to stay in the USA as I would like to see the rest of the world.
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Old 09-02-2012, 11:53 PM
 
Location: Great Falls, Montana
3,983 posts, read 3,267,436 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by usuario View Post
What would you do? If you were 16, grew up in America, play on your high school's football team, think you're American, and then go apply for your first job and discover that you don't have a social security number because you're illegal?
I'd run right out and buy a fake Social Security number and get on with the rest of my life, just like everyone else does .. duh ..
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Old 09-03-2012, 05:52 AM
Yac
 
5,875 posts, read 6,298,527 times
I'd like to remind everybody that there is no obligation to post in every thread. If you feel the topic is ridiculous or somehow not worthy of a serious comment, don't post. If you do post but only to mock/derail, it won't end good.
Yac.
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Old 09-03-2012, 02:22 PM
 
105 posts, read 84,535 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by usuario View Post
How exactly would Ned go about doing that? I'm interested in knowing how illegal aliens supposedly get all these free benefits that Americans are not entitled to. Is there some secret government department only illegal aliens know about where Obama hands out foodstamps and medical insurance cards? If such a department existed, I'm sure Americans could pretend to be illegal and undocumented, couldn't they?
YOU'RE interesed? Do you need benefits? You are extremely naive to the politics of it all. We're not going to make it easy for you.
Quote:
Umm, this is a hypothetical "put yourself in his shoes" situation. It's nice of you to flaunt your birthright.
It's OUR birthright to flaunt. We OWN this country.
Quote:
Hey, this Ned is not one of those border-jumping scumbags. He sees a lot of those scumbags in his neighborhood, you know the kind that drive without driver's licenses and insurance and forge people's social security numbers and don't pay taxes. Those people make him kind of dislike Mexicans. He's never willingly broken a law in his life.
Perhaps you haven't broken a law in your life, but in truth, your life is a broken law in itself.

Aha!! Do YOU have a driver's license? Insurance? Social Security number?
Quote:
It is quite possible to not speak the language of your parents. Especially if your parents are scumbags ...
It is IMPOSSIBLE to not speak the language of your parents unless you were adopted by foreigners at birth. If you lived at all in their house (i.e., going home to eat and sleep says you do) you would know how to communicate with them.
Quote:
Ned is one of these people. He actually thought he was American until he tried to get a job and found out he didn't have an SSN. He's always called himself American, refusing to call himself a "Mexican-American" because he doesn't believe in hyphenated Americans.
Social Security numbers are needed for various reasons throughout a person's life, not only for a job. If you attend one of our schools, you would have needed one.
Quote:
Originally Posted by usuario View Post
And please tell me where this secret government department is to collect free health care. I want to pretend to be illegal and get some free healthcare, welfare, and food stamps myself!
And here it is again...

Ned, although you have been lied to for years by your parents, it's THEM who you should be asking these questions to, not us. Had you gone back to mexico on your own and come here legally, I would admire your desire to be American, but what you are doing, is seeking sympathy from those who have to pay back into the systems illegals take from. It's OUR taxes that afford you to go to OUR schools. It's OUR children who have to lose their educations because too many of YOU don't know english. There is no end to the list of whys we have for not having the sympathy you are looking for.

Go back to mexico, do it right, then come talk to us.
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Old 09-03-2012, 09:25 PM
 
Location: The Heart of Dixie
6,583 posts, read 11,641,644 times
Reputation: 4004
Quote:
Originally Posted by usuario View Post
What would you do? If you were 16, grew up in America, play on your high school's football team, think you're American, and then go apply for your first job and discover that you don't have a social security number because you're illegal? All your friends are American, none of them are from your country of birth, which you've never been to since you were 18 months old anyway. You don't speak Spanish since you're not close with your parents. In fact you dislike your parents because they're "not cool": they're out of touch with American culture. They've actually kind of made you not like Mexicans. You got an A in U.S. Civics and History but you know squat about Mexico or what Cinco de Mayo is. You don't like the Hispanic gangs composed of illegal border-jumpers, but now you discover that your parents jumped the border themselves and didn't tell you about it! Your legal name is Carlos but everyone and yourself know you as "Ned". You don't know anyone in Mexico or even which part of Mexico your parents were from.

You have one more year of high school, hoping to ask this girl Debbie you like out for junior prom. You're kind of a jock but you're still serious about school and the rock band you're a drummer for. You're on the school's debate team and you've always been arguing for immigrants to assimilate and speak English and be a part of American society rather than going around and forming ethnic ghettos. You're also one of those people who argue for keeping God in the Pledge of Allegiance, and for pulling "our country, the U.S." out of the UN. The school counselor has high hopes for you to get into the top state school for college. What's the best thing to do and when should you do it?
First of all this is not very realistic scenario. Here in Maryland the Dream Act is up for referendum and in the news all of the students who are set to benefit from the tuition bill speak with foreign accents and are not very asssimilated. Some of them even needed translators for the interview. None of them spoke English as their first language.

Now for the fictional character in your story. I think when he has an immigration hearing, or when he is interviewed in the news, he should not make excuses for himself. He should apologize to the American people for coming illegally, apologize on behalf of his parents for coming here illegally. And then beg us for our forgiveness and mercy. And not march in the streets and demand this and that like its a God given right. And maybe, and I stress MAYBE, he might get some sympathy.And if there MUST be a Dream Act, I think the illegals who benefit from it should be taxed at a higher rate than other people in their income bracket for the next 20 or 30 years of their life.
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