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Old 09-07-2012, 03:10 PM
 
Location: Maryland
15,179 posts, read 15,809,199 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Randomstudent View Post
Third as wast pointed out by desertdetrioter in post 8 people broke immigration laws in the in the past just like they do today. For example, Chinese immigration was banned in 1882, yet millions of Chinese still came to America illegally.
Illegal immigration during the past 20 years is unprecedented. Had the Chinese broken our laws at the same rate as Hispanics, they would now be the largest "minority" in this country. Without massive illegal immigration, primarily from Mexico, we would not have experienced such a phenomenal increase in the Hispanic population in such a short period. But, regardless of what happened in 1882, times have changed, our needs are different, and there is no justification for illegal immigration. Wrong is wrong, period.
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Old 09-07-2012, 03:25 PM
 
3,493 posts, read 2,385,436 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Randomstudent View Post
The the Second Great Wave from 1880-1924, created ethnic enclaves. Tammany hall is one of the most famous operations for catered to these ethnic enclaves. So check one on your BS is that these immigrant groups did not reward politicians for catering to them.
Legal immigrants who were expected to learn English. Again the only BS is your own. They did not expect Teddy Roosevelt to learn Yiddish or Italian. They sure as hell did not criss-cross the country during an election year showing up at the nominating convention with the intention of demanding the president cater to their needs.

Quote:
The vast majority of Immigrants from the second great wave coincided with the first large scale introduction of socialism into the American political psyche and added fuel to the progressive movement. Immigrants who arrived in the second wave were a substantial part of the New Deal coalition, but even before that they favored politicians who supported education and public health reforms. Immigrants back then also expected a lot from the government that had not been done before, particularly in terms of public health.
You are still ignoring the fact that they were not allowed to collect welfare during that time frame. You are also ignoring the fact that they were legal citizens who had every right to demand changes in the government. There's a huge difference between legal citizens demanding a better country and illegals from Mexico whining we're not handing them handouts after they break our laws. Supporting high school education for Americans and the creation of infrastructure to better the lives of ALL Americans is not the same thing as selfishly demanding the "right" to get an American high school diploma without demonstrating any English fluency. Asking for better sanitation and better sewerage to make a city safer is sure as hell not the same thing as demanding that Americans pay for your midwife and private hospital room so you can have your tenth child.

They were advocating for a better society for all of those who live here. Illegals are demanding a society where Americans are forced to work harder to meet their economic desires because they are too chicken to make such demands of their own leaders. That's vile.

Quote:
Third as wast pointed out by desertdetrioter in post 8 people broke immigration laws in the in the past just like they do today. For example, Chinese immigration was banned in 1882, yet millions of Chinese still came to America illegally.
So? We're not allowed to have any immigration laws now because some people in the past broke our immigration laws?



Quote:
Fourth my great grandparents were not lazy they left my grandparents over a half a million dollars back when a half a million dollars was a lot of money. They worked hard, but their English was not the greatest. That was the way it was with a lot of immigrants then and now. It is again historical whitewash to pretend that immigrants just magically learned English back in the day.
You're still ignoring the fundamental and accurate point I made: they learned English and did not expect publically provided interpreters. The same is not true today. Many hispanic leaders really do whine that Americans have the nerve not to know Spanish. They argue that learning a foreign language is hard. So Americans should do it for them!



Quote:
Finally, free land is free land. The government was giving people stuff for free. There is no getting around that. Living in the LA ghetto is not a piece of cake either, but getting free stuff then as in now implies hardship.

Again you want to whitewash history to feel better about yourself.
If you really can't see the difference between the government providing incentives to encourage development in underdeveloped states and asking people to endure great hardships in the process AND the government handing an illegal a no work required apartment and hundreds of dollars a month in free food . . . well that's pathetic.

You just keep whitewashing history. The local Mexican high school dropout illegal who fathered three kids with three different women before he finished puberty, works off the books when he works at all, collects three hundred bucks in food stamps and does not speak English even though he's lived here twenty years may have something in common with your miserable relatives. I am proud to say he has nothing in common with mine. I will do everything I can to get him out of my country.

Let me know where you live and I'll be happy to send you the bill for his upkeep.

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Old 09-07-2012, 03:38 PM
 
31,474 posts, read 14,565,596 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
Illegal immigration during the past 20 years is unprecedented. Had the Chinese broken our laws at the same rate as Hispanics, they would now be the largest "minority" in this country. Without massive illegal immigration, primarily from Mexico, we would not have experienced such a phenomenal increase in the Hispanic population in such a short period. But, regardless of what happened in 1882, times have changed, our needs are different, and there is no justification for illegal immigration. Wrong is wrong, period.
I would only add that what is also unprecedented was that politicians back then were not thumbing their noses at our immigration laws to pander to a certain ethnic group for votes or granting back door amnesties and bypassing congress. I wonder why that point I made didn't get addressed?
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Old 09-07-2012, 04:02 PM
 
Location: California
2,477 posts, read 1,711,425 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Randomstudent View Post
Third as wast pointed out by desertdetrioter in post 8 people broke immigration laws in the in the past just like they do today. For example, Chinese immigration was banned in 1882, yet millions of Chinese still came to America illegally.
The Chinese were not banned from entering the US (The Chinese Exclusion Act - a misnomer in itself). The Act merely excluded Chinese miners from coming (due to a large importation of opium) and prostitutes. The Chinese Emperor (as per the Burlingame Treaty of 1868) was the one to allow his people to leave or not as they had to obtain certification from the Chinese government that they were qualified to immigrate, which tended to be difficult to prove. For which the Emperor and the US gov't re-negotiated the treaty and came up with the laws known as the Chinese Exclusion Laws of 1882. If they were to leave the US and return they would have to obtain certification for re-entry.

Now, how can you show there were illegal Chinese entering the US since most came by boat into SF Bay?
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Old 09-07-2012, 09:40 PM
 
Location: Jacurutu
5,302 posts, read 4,010,077 times
Reputation: 601
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eleanora1 View Post
Legal immigrants who were expected to learn English. Again the only BS is your own. They did not expect Teddy Roosevelt to learn Yiddish or Italian...
This Teddy Roosevelt?:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Teddy Roosevelt
We should provide for every immigrant, by day-schools for the young and night-schools for the adult, the chance to learn English; and if after, say, five years he has not learned English, he should be sent back to the land from whence he came.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Teddy Roosevelt
We should insist that if the immigrant who comes here does in good faith become an American and assimilates himself to us he shall be treated on an exact equality with every one else, for it is an outrage to discriminate against any such man because of creed or birth-place or origin.

But this is predicated upon the man's becoming in very fact an American and nothing but an American. If he tries to keep segregated with men of his own origin and separated from the rest of America, then he isn't doing his part as an American. There can be no divided allegiance here. We have room for but one language here, and that is the English language, for we intend to see that the crucible turns our people out as Americans, of American nationality, and not as dwellers in a polyglot boarding-house; and we have room for but one soul loyalty, and that is loyalty to the American people.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Teddy Roosevelt
Never under any condition should this Nation look at an immigrant as primarily a labor unit. He should always be looked at primarily as a future citizen and the father of other citizens who are to live in this land as fellows with our children and our children's children. Our immigration laws, permanent or temporary, should always be constructed with this fact in view.
There are many more such quotes from him, but if immigration back then was as peachy-keen as suggested, why would Teddy need to say such statements?...
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Old 09-07-2012, 10:05 PM
 
31,474 posts, read 14,565,596 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IBMMuseum View Post
This Teddy Roosevelt?:







There are many more such quotes from him, but if immigration back then was as peachy-keen as suggested, why would Teddy need to say such statements?...

Not really following what you are trying to prove or say here. What do you mean by peachy keen? Teddy Roosevelt was merely stating what was expected of immigrants (legal ones of course) back then like learning English and holding no loyalty to any other country than the U.S. and be treated just like everyone else. His words are exactly what we advocate.

Last edited by Oldglory; 09-07-2012 at 10:15 PM..
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Old 09-07-2012, 11:41 PM
 
Location: Jacurutu
5,302 posts, read 4,010,077 times
Reputation: 601
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oldglory View Post
...His words are exactly what we advocate.
Calling for an end to ESL programs is an exact opposite to Teddy suggestion that we have schools to teach English to immigrants...

Here's another quote, but it is Teddy saying it, not me:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Teddy Roosevelt
If you could kick the person in the pants responsible for most of your trouble, you wouldn't sit for a month.
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Old 09-08-2012, 06:59 AM
 
31,474 posts, read 14,565,596 times
Reputation: 8350
Quote:
Originally Posted by IBMMuseum View Post
Calling for an end to ESL programs is an exact opposite to Teddy suggestion that we have schools to teach English to immigrants...

Here's another quote, but it is Teddy saying it, not me:
I think you are tying to put your own spin on and stretch on what Roosevelt was saying. Where in your quotes by him did he advocate for ESL programs? He just said that immigrants need to learn English. He said nothing about what method should be used to accomplish that.

"If you could kick the person in the pants responsible for most of your trouble, you wouldn't sit for a month".

Who is blaming legal immigrants for their troubles? It is a fact however that illegal immigrants have a negative impact on our country and are attributing to the troubles that we have as individuals and collectively as citizens. That isn't saying that they are the only problems we have in this country.
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Old 09-08-2012, 01:39 PM
 
Location: NC
10,005 posts, read 8,717,270 times
Reputation: 3062
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eleanora1 View Post
Legal immigrants who were expected to learn English. Again the only BS is your own. They did not expect Teddy Roosevelt to learn Yiddish or Italian. They sure as hell did not criss-cross the country during an election year showing up at the nominating convention with the intention of demanding the president cater to their needs.

Your romantizing the past again some did, some relied on staying in their enclaves and communities and having others cater to them...no different then today, just look at Miami.

You are still ignoring the fact that they were not allowed to collect welfare during that time frame. You are also ignoring the fact that they were legal citizens who had every right to demand changes in the government. There's a huge difference between legal citizens demanding a better country and illegals from Mexico whining we're not handing them handouts after they break our laws. Supporting high school education for Americans and the creation of infrastructure to better the lives of ALL Americans is not the same thing as selfishly demanding the "right" to get an American high school diploma without demonstrating any English fluency. Asking for better sanitation and better sewerage to make a city safer is sure as hell not the same thing as demanding that Americans pay for your midwife and private hospital room so you can have your tenth child.

Each town had a dole, it was more localized but there was in fact welfare, if you don't believe this look up the etymology of "on the dole." They also had public schools back then (in large cities this was principally advocated for by people who wanted to keep the children of immigrants from becoming a delinquncy problem and curve their innate criminal tendencies). Furthermore you should read some period literature about immigrants in the early 20th century. There is all sorts of stuff about how the were a burden on society.

They were advocating for a better society for all of those who live here. Illegals are demanding a society where Americans are forced to work harder to meet their economic desires because they are too chicken to make such demands of their own leaders. That's vile.

Again you are romanticizing history to make you feel better about yourself and your ancestry, many in the early 20th century did not see immigrants the way you do and the viewed that avocating as socialist and communist. In fact many of them said the exact same things you are saying about modern day Mexicans. Part of why planned parenthood was founded was an effort by non-immigrants to deal with the Italians and Jews. Think about it if Italian and Jewish immigrants were viewed as such wonderful, assimiliatiable, and civic minded people working to build a better society why the heck did congress vote overwhelmingly to keep them out in 1924.

So? We're not allowed to have any immigration laws now because some people in the past broke our immigration laws?

No, immigration laws are great, but pretending they were not violated historically is BS.





You're still ignoring the fundamental and accurate point I made: they learned English and did not expect publically provided interpreters. The same is not true today. Many hispanic leaders really do whine that Americans have the nerve not to know Spanish. They argue that learning a foreign language is hard. So Americans should do it for them!



No you are white washing history. Plenty of second wave immigrants never learned English, heck many did not even intend to stay in the United States. While I think learning English should be necessary if someone wants to live in America the fact is learning a foreign language is hard, that is why many immigrants didn't do it back then as well.

If you really can't see the difference between the government providing incentives to encourage development in underdeveloped states and asking people to endure great hardships in the process AND the government handing an illegal a no work required apartment and hundreds of dollars a month in free food . . . well that's pathetic.

I see it as all the same, you have a bunch of people who you need to keep under control. Welfare, land patents, whatever, it is all the American version of panem et circenses. Give people food and something to do to keep the occupied. It doesn't matter what shape or form that takes.

You just keep whitewashing history. The local Mexican high school dropout illegal who fathered three kids with three different women before he finished puberty, works off the books when he works at all, collects three hundred bucks in food stamps and does not speak English even though he's lived here twenty years may have something in common with your miserable relatives. I am proud to say he has nothing in common with mine. I will do everything I can to get him out of my country.

Let me know where you live and I'll be happy to send you the bill for his upkeep.

Since when did I say I like illegal immigration, I don't I think it screws labor, undermines justice, and burdens the social system. I just think it is stupid to lie about history to make yourself feel good. This crap is the northern version of the lost cause BS I get down here.

Last edited by Randomstudent; 09-08-2012 at 01:50 PM..
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Old 09-08-2012, 03:24 PM
 
3,493 posts, read 2,385,436 times
Reputation: 2345
Your romantizing the past again some did, some relied on staying in their enclaves and communities and having others cater to them...no different then today, just look at Miami.


So now telling the truth about my relatives and my community is romantizing the past? It was different back then. You were told to learn English, assimilate to this country and do not go on welfare and come here legally. We don't do that today. We cater to Mexicans so that Dems can go after the hispanic vote and Reps can have cheap labor.


Each town had a dole, it was more localized but there was in fact welfare, if you don't believe this look up the etymology of "on the dole." They also had public schools back then (in large cities this was principally advocated for by people who wanted to keep the children of immigrants from becoming a delinquncy problem and curve their innate criminal tendencies). Furthermore you should read some period literature about immigrants in the early 20th century. There is all sorts of stuff about how the were a burden on society.

I'm really sorry that your little town had this idiotic idea that one should hand money to foreigners just because they showed up here but that's not how it was back then for most legal immigrants let alone anyone who snuck in here with a medical condition and was sent right back home. Part of the reason for the push in closing the doors back then was the realization that a country should not take in endless numbers of people for a prolonged period without demanding they assimilate.

Today it's no assimilate and force Spanish down everyone's throats. It's also let them stay here and collect American tax dollars if they are mentally ill or illiterate or breed up a dozen kids they cannot afford. It's the very opposite point of view. Immigrants back then were grateful. They were happy to be here. They knew that if they could not manage they would have to go back home. Today it's completely in your face arrogance coupled with a deep seated ethnic racism and a revolting contempt for the society they are allegedly so desperate to join.

Again you are romanticizing history to make you feel better about yourself and your ancestry, many in the early 20th century did not see immigrants the way you do and the viewed that avocating as socialist and communist. In fact many of them said the exact same things you are saying about modern day Mexicans. Part of why planned parenthood was founded was an effort by non-immigrants to deal with the Italians and Jews. Think about it if Italian and Jewish immigrants were viewed as such wonderful, assimiliatiable, and civic minded people working to build a better society why the heck did congress vote overwhelmingly to keep them out in 1924.


Wow. What a preposterous statement! Why on earth would you make any kind of nasty presumptions about my relatives? Are you so brainwashed that you simply assume that all relatives were like yours and did not learn English? Or like the local idiot illegal brigade with their racism and incompetence?

My family propered here. None of them went on welfare. They all learned English. They were active in social causes. I'm sorry if such facts are alien to you.

Margaret Sanger's known racism has nothing to do with the fact that most illegals today are Mexicans who don't speak English or have a high school diploma and lots of kids they can't afford without public subsidies. That's not a statement. That's a fact. The doors were shut because they had forty-four years of unlimited immigration. It's hardly unreasonable to say it was time to give Americans and would be Americans a little breathing room.

America is a better place because Jews showed up. A good portion of our Nobel prizes have been won by Jews. America is also a better place because we let in Italians and legal immigrants when we needed them. It is not a better place when we let in Mexico's least able citizens and hand them our tax dollars.


No, immigration laws are great, but pretending they were not violated historically is BS.






Who the hell said they weren't? Go burn your strawman. He'd better off that way.



No you are white washing history. Plenty of second wave immigrants never learned English, heck many did not even intend to stay in the United States. While I think learning English should be necessary if someone wants to live in America the fact is learning a foreign language is hard, that is why many immigrants didn't do it back then as well.

You are still missing the point. If they didn't learn English they didn't expect the entire country to learn Italian or Yiddish or Polish to make their lives easier. Many did no intention of staying in the United States because we didn't coddle them back them with three hundred bucks a month in free food and a free apartment just because they gave birth on American soil.

If learning a foreign language is hard for someone they should not come someplace where they will have to learn it.


I see it as all the same, you have a bunch of people who you need to keep under control. Welfare, land patents, whatever, it is all the American version of panem et circenses. Give people food and something to do to keep the occupied. It doesn't matter what shape or form that takes.

I am sorry you can't tell the difference between the government providing for the American need to populate the prairies by allowing people to work hard to remain there and illegals who take advantage of a loophole in American law to gain access to our tax dollars after they've broken our laws.

That's just sad


Since when did I say I like illegal immigration, I don't I think it screws labor, undermines justice, and burdens the social system. I just think it is stupid to lie about history to make yourself feel good. This crap is the northern version of the lost cause BS I get down here.

At least you got one thing right finally. Now if only you could admit that legal immigration where you really were expected to learn the language and not get money from the feds just for having ignored our laws was the historical norm, you might get the rest right. The only lie is the pretense that some idiot who ignores our immigration lines, refuses to learn English and demands the right get access to our tax dollars is the same person as my hard working granny.

Don't worry. The rest of us are here to correct you as needed.
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