U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Politics and Other Controversies > Illegal Immigration
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 09-17-2012, 10:00 AM
 
32,099 posts, read 14,827,373 times
Reputation: 8582

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by danielpalos View Post
There is an already proved business model in Commerce that is already making multimillion dollar bonuses for persons in the private sector. The amusement park sector is a good example that can be ported to the public sector and function as a public sector means of production by generating revenue to defray the cost of government and lower our Tax burden, in that manner.

As an analogy, it could be said that amusement parks are minimicro States that simply sell visas to potential "foreign" labor--since simply obtaining a work visa would not be any guarantee of a job, but merely the right to be in the US and try their luck in our market for labor.

In my opinion, our federal Congress should be able to obtain Pareto Optimalities and to fix those Standards in the US in order to better ensure full employment of resources in any given market, but especial markets that primarily involve human capital.

We could be obtaining biometrics from foreign labor that chooses to participate in the US market for labor along with a fee for positive market participation and a fine for negative market participation.

Such revenue could be used to fund social programs so that alleged Conservatives may be burdened less, of both a Tax and a moral of "goodwill toward men".

In such a manner, we may be able to better our morals and our infrastructure at the same time, merely by conforming more to rational choice theory and the theory of supply and demand, and the assumption of perfect competition as a "holy grail".
We already have visas for workers that we need. Are you suggesting that we issue more even though we don't need more foreign workers with 23 million Americans out of work? Another question, what do you mean by we may be able to better our morals? Are you sugesting that our immigration laws, policies and enforcement of them are immoral?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 09-17-2012, 10:11 AM
 
Location: US, California - federalist
2,795 posts, read 3,114,596 times
Reputation: 479
I am advocating actually solving our illegal problem on a permanent basis through Commerce that is well Regulated among the several States of the Union and generating revenue from that form of public sector means of production, in order to lower our Tax burden through that market friendly means. And, to use some of that revenue generated, to fund human capital infrastructure development.

I am also advocating actually solving poverty, instead of merely paying for a War on Poverty for around a generation while expecting different results. The infrastructure already exists in every State and the federal districts.

It will only require sufficient morals to bear true witness to our own laws, simply for the sake of the moral of honesty and that form of moral absolutism.

From a philosophical perspective, a social safety net should only end when it is no longer needed or it will sacrifice the end to the means of limits which are not intelligently designed to actually solve that social dilemma.

We could be solving poverty in the US through unemployment compensation merely for being able to claim to be unemployed or underemployed. Such simplification in our public policies could provide better governance at lower prices; since our social safety net could be as easy to administer as minimum wage laws are now.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-17-2012, 10:16 AM
 
Location: US, California - federalist
2,795 posts, read 3,114,596 times
Reputation: 479
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oldglory View Post
Are you sugesting that our immigration laws, policies and enforcement of them are immoral?
This is why our Government was ordained and established:

Quote:
We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.
Supply side economics should be supplying us with better governance at lower prices so that we may eventually become better Angels on Earth who have no need for the expense of Government.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-17-2012, 04:27 PM
 
Location: California
2,477 posts, read 1,722,941 times
Reputation: 299
Quote:
Originally Posted by danielpalos View Post
There is an already proved business model in Commerce that is already making multimillion dollar bonuses for persons in the private sector. The amusement park sector is a good example that can be ported to the public sector and function as a public sector means of production by generating revenue to defray the cost of government and lower our Tax burden, in that manner.

As an analogy, it could be said that amusement parks are minimicro States that simply sell visas to potential "foreign" labor--since simply obtaining a work visa would not be any guarantee of a job, but merely the right to be in the US and try their luck in our market for labor.

In my opinion, our federal Congress should be able to obtain Pareto Optimalities and to fix those Standards in the US in order to better ensure full employment of resources in any given market, but especial markets that primarily involve human capital.

We could be obtaining biometrics from foreign labor that chooses to participate in the US market for labor along with a fee for positive market participation and a fine for negative market participation.

Such revenue could be used to fund social programs so that alleged Conservatives may be burdened less, of both a Tax and a moral of "goodwill toward men".

In such a manner, we may be able to better our morals and our infrastructure at the same time, merely by conforming more to rational choice theory and the theory of supply and demand, and the assumption of perfect competition as a "holy grail".
The amusement park theory of economics http://www.economist.com/node/13395767 isn't the answer. Your issue is that you still look at people as capital and resource. Why would people pay to work? Its a rather inept idea. People will pay to immigrate for the chance of citizenship. If business needed the employee it would be business that would pay the "fee"; that "fee" would be passed into the market and the consumer would then be paying additional cost for the product. Why would the citizen want to pay for the immigrant to come and work and take a potential job from the citizen? Why would the citizen shoot themselves in the foot?

Quote:
Originally Posted by danielpalos View Post
I am advocating actually solving our illegal problem on a permanent basis through Commerce that is well Regulated among the several States of the Union and generating revenue from that form of public sector means of production, in order to lower our Tax burden through that market friendly means. And, to use some of that revenue generated, to fund human capital infrastructure development.

I am also advocating actually solving poverty, instead of merely paying for a War on Poverty for around a generation while expecting different results. The infrastructure already exists in every State and the federal districts.

It will only require sufficient morals to bear true witness to our own laws, simply for the sake of the moral of honesty and that form of moral absolutism.

From a philosophical perspective, a social safety net should only end when it is no longer needed or it will sacrifice the end to the means of limits which are not intelligently designed to actually solve that social dilemma.

We could be solving poverty in the US through unemployment compensation merely for being able to claim to be unemployed or underemployed. Such simplification in our public policies could provide better governance at lower prices; since our social safety net could be as easy to administer as minimum wage laws are now.
The Robin hood Theory now?

Quote:
Originally Posted by danielpalos View Post
This is why our Government was ordained and established:

Supply side economics should be supplying us with better governance at lower prices so that we may eventually become better Angels on Earth who have no need for the expense of Government.
Supply-side economics has very little to do with governance, it has more to do with money based on product and demand or excess. You fail to understand or even include inflation. Your ideals are theory of "should be", when in reality it doesn't work but in very few instances.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-18-2012, 10:43 AM
 
Location: US, California - federalist
2,795 posts, read 3,114,596 times
Reputation: 479
Quote:
Originally Posted by Liquid Reigns View Post
The amusement park theory of economics Economist theme park: The Economist Group expands | The Economist isn't the answer. Your issue is that you still look at people as capital and resource. Why would people pay to work? Its a rather inept idea. People will pay to immigrate for the chance of citizenship. If business needed the employee it would be business that would pay the "fee"; that "fee" would be passed into the market and the consumer would then be paying additional cost for the product. Why would the citizen want to pay for the immigrant to come and work and take a potential job from the citizen? Why would the citizen shoot themselves in the foot?
I am not sure why those on the right seems to prefer the coercive use of force of the State, instead of abstinence, doing nothing, and faith to solve our moral dilemmas in modern times. I am advocating actually solving our illegal problem via Commerce well Regulated, instead of Prohibition, which has never worked in the history of the United States.

Here are some facts regarding the amusement park industry and sector of our economy:

Year/ Attendance/Revenue

Quote:
2007 341 million $12.0 billion

...

Overall attendance at America’s approximately 400 parks and attractions has increased almost every year during recent times. Declines in 1994 and 2003 can be attributed in part to very cold, very wet summers and in 1998 due, again, to some poor weather and fewer visitors from Asia.

....
Earning an income is all that is really required, under any form of Capitalism. Foreign labor is already willing to pay black market prices to enter the US; they could be getting a better product at potentially lower prices, through public sector intervention in private sector markets that better ensures full employment on of resources.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-18-2012, 10:46 AM
 
Location: US, California - federalist
2,795 posts, read 3,114,596 times
Reputation: 479
Quote:
Originally Posted by Liquid Reigns View Post
Supply-side economics has very little to do with governance, it has more to do with money based on product and demand or excess. You fail to understand or even include inflation. Your ideals are theory of "should be", when in reality it doesn't work but in very few instances.
What you are describing is merely mediocre implementation of the concept of supply side economics, which should be supplying us with better governance at lower prices.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-18-2012, 01:04 PM
 
Location: California
2,477 posts, read 1,722,941 times
Reputation: 299
Quote:
Originally Posted by danielpalos View Post
I am not sure why those on the right seems to prefer the coercive use of force of the State, instead of abstinence, doing nothing, and faith to solve our moral dilemmas in modern times. I am advocating actually solving our illegal problem via Commerce well Regulated, instead of Prohibition, which has never worked in the history of the United States.

Here are some facts regarding the amusement park industry and sector of our economy:

Year/ Attendance/Revenue



Earning an income is all that is really required, under any form of Capitalism. Foreign labor is already willing to pay black market prices to enter the US; they could be getting a better product at potentially lower prices, through public sector intervention in private sector markets that better ensures full employment on of resources.
You scenarios still leave to much on the table, resources are not infinite. You are advocating something that not even the founders advocated. Immigration is not prohibited, it is "well regulated", its simply that illegals choose to by-pass those regulations for "their own economic gain".

We will never have full employment under those ideals. More people will continue to enter (legally according to you) which in turn will drive the wage down lower, use up all existing infrastructure and cause inflation to skyrocket along with taxes, both state and State. Your ideals are not well versed in economics at all.

While amusement parks may have had record attendances (free parking, free entry), that doesn't mean they A) made more profit, B) may still have performed poorly financially, and C) people are staying local vs going on vacation out of State to say Europe (just like much of the world isn't coming to the US right now for vacation). What would be the enticement for both the citizen and the immigrant? What benefit would the citizen receive (competition for work drives down wages with no guarantee of decrease in price of product)? Resources go up along with deterioration of infrastructure, taxes go up along with costs.

Last edited by Liquid Reigns; 09-18-2012 at 01:28 PM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-18-2012, 01:07 PM
 
Location: California
2,477 posts, read 1,722,941 times
Reputation: 299
Quote:
Originally Posted by danielpalos View Post
What you are describing is merely mediocre implementation of the concept of supply side economics, which should be supplying us with better governance at lower prices.
Prices only ever lower on old product (to remove it from inventory) while new product comes in at a higher price then previous item. The cost of governance will never decrease, additional monies will be spent, the feds don't have a savings account. Like I said, your theory relies on "should be (utopia)" not "what is (actual reality no matter the economics of the nation itself)".

Last edited by Liquid Reigns; 09-18-2012 at 01:30 PM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-18-2012, 07:36 PM
 
Location: US, California - federalist
2,795 posts, read 3,114,596 times
Reputation: 479
Quote:
Originally Posted by Liquid Reigns View Post
You scenarios still leave to much on the table, resources are not infinite. You are advocating something that not even the founders advocated. Immigration is not prohibited, it is "well regulated", its simply that illegals choose to by-pass those regulations for "their own economic gain".

We will never have full employment under those ideals. More people will continue to enter (legally according to you) which in turn will drive the wage down lower, use up all existing infrastructure and cause inflation to skyrocket along with taxes, both state and State. Your ideals are not well versed in economics at all.

While amusement parks may have had record attendances (free parking, free entry), that doesn't mean they A) made more profit, B) may still have performed poorly financially, and C) people are staying local vs going on vacation out of State to say Europe (just like much of the world isn't coming to the US right now for vacation). What would be the enticement for both the citizen and the immigrant? What benefit would the citizen receive (competition for work drives down wages with no guarantee of decrease in price of product)? Resources go up along with deterioration of infrastructure, taxes go up along with costs.
Why do you believe productivity would not improve to the extent we have more efficient labor competing for for prevailing market rates or even efficiency wages?

Why would not more efficient foreign labor want to try their luck in US markets and earn prevailing wage work in the US? It is conceivable that foreign labor may want to accumulate enough capital to start a local business in their native State, if it were that simple.

We could be subsidizing the least efficient US labor to not directly compete in the market for labor and instead pursue other opportunity costs such as going to school or learn new and more marketable vocations. We already have employment at will laws and unemployment infrastructure in every State of the Union and the federal districts; all that is really required is enough morals to bear true witness to our own laws in order to secure that Blessing of Liberty to ourselves and our posterity.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-18-2012, 08:24 PM
 
Location: California
2,477 posts, read 1,722,941 times
Reputation: 299
Quote:
Originally Posted by danielpalos View Post
Why do you believe productivity would not improve to the extent we have more efficient labor competing for for prevailing market rates or even efficiency wages?

Why would not more efficient foreign labor want to try their luck in US markets and earn prevailing wage work in the US? It is conceivable that foreign labor may want to accumulate enough capital to start a local business in their native State, if it were that simple.

We could be subsidizing the least efficient US labor to not directly compete in the market for labor and instead pursue other opportunity costs such as going to school or learn new and more marketable vocations. We already have employment at will laws and unemployment infrastructure in every State of the Union and the federal districts; all that is really required is enough morals to bear true witness to our own laws in order to secure that Blessing of Liberty to ourselves and our posterity.
Why is it you think labor rates will remain at "prevailing wage" or efficient wages? Simple over supply of labor causes reduction in "prevailing wage" and efficient wages don't lower product price. What you propose is a race to the bottom in wages, we would end up like China and India with their overpopulation's.

More efficient foreign labor? Robots are efficient, people, especially un-skilled, are not. Who cares if they want to "try their luck" in the US market. Why should we care about foreign labor accumulating enough capital? The few that may start a local business and succeed isn't enough to cover the costs of those that don't. Your economic theory isn't worth the time you have wasted in attempting to explain your avocation for open borders. You're barking up the wrong tree in here.

We already subsidize the least efficient labor (it's called welfare). Your ramblings of the same basic phrase over and over doesn't hep your cause, in fact it turns many away. Do we not already adhere to our morals and bear witness to our own laws (presuming you mean the USC)?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Politics and Other Controversies > Illegal Immigration
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2018, Advameg, Inc.

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top