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Old 11-14-2007, 06:22 PM
 
491 posts, read 1,291,100 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TriMT7 View Post
Can you steal from someone who has no concept of ownership?


Not saying that I adhere to an infantile view of American Indians as these docile, hippie like little angels that is so popular in pop culture and even creeping into the way some American Indians view themselves, however.


The sad part is that the history of the world is a history of conquer, subjugation, assimiliation, absorption, genocide, and land grabs.

It doesn't fly in "today's" world, but I think you'd start a weird chain of events demanding anyone living on conquered lands give that land "back" to the original inhabitants --- if those original inhabitants even exist anymore.
I never said we should in fact give it back. But I don't think we should be demanding that others who want to come here should leave either.
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Old 11-14-2007, 06:23 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oktaren View Post
The white folks who trampled by didn't own it either. Why did they think they could just take it? Yeah, because they were greedy.
What does ancient history have to do with present day illegal immigration problems again?

Or is it just strawman season?
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Old 11-14-2007, 06:25 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TriMT7 View Post
What does ancient history have to do with present day illegal immigration problems again?

Or is it just strawman season?
Who was talking about ancient history, i was talking about a few mere hundred years ago. Ancient history is anything before the middle ages...
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Old 11-14-2007, 06:27 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oktaren View Post
I never said we should in fact give it back. But I don't think we should be demanding that others who want to come here should leave either.

BZZZZZ. Sorry, but this isn't 1620 anymore. We have a nation to protect just as American Indians often fought to protect their lands from the "invasion."

Why are people like you so intent on turning the United States into a third-world crap hole? You know, those people you want to just "let in" are FLEEING their crap hole countries and I see no benefit to ANYONE of destroying the social support network that keeps us from turning into a whiter version of Latin America.

Unless you support the "locust" theory of immigration whereas anyone who wants can come swarming in, eat up the social services, strip the land, deplete the natural resources and strain the environment... and then "move on" to the next place once THIS place is relegated to third world status?
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Old 11-14-2007, 06:28 PM
 
17,279 posts, read 24,961,305 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oktaren View Post
Who was talking about ancient history, i was talking about a few mere hundred years ago. Ancient history is anything before the middle ages...
There has been more "change" in this world in the past 100 years than probably the last 2000 combined.

MOD CUT

Last edited by NewToCA; 11-14-2007 at 09:04 PM.. Reason: cut the sarcasm
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Old 11-14-2007, 06:31 PM
 
491 posts, read 1,291,100 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TriMT7 View Post
BZZZZZ. Sorry, but this isn't 1620 anymore. We have a nation to protect just as American Indians often fought to protect their lands from the "invasion."

Why are people like you so intent on turning the United States into a third-world crap hole? You know, those people you want to just "let in" are FLEEING their crap hole countries and I see no benefit to ANYONE of destroying the social support network that keeps us from turning into a whiter version of Latin America.

Unless you support the "locust" theory of immigration whereas anyone who wants can come swarming in, eat up the social services, strip the land, deplete the natural resources and strain the environment... and then "move on" to the next place once THIS place is relegated to third world status?
well, i don't believe in social services or the abuse of any natural resources. i think you either have open borders or closed borders, there is nothing in between. at this point, the u.s. has open borders, if you want to close them, lets go for it, close them all, to people and goods.
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Old 11-14-2007, 06:32 PM
 
491 posts, read 1,291,100 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TriMT7 View Post
There has been more "change" in this world in the past 100 years than probably the last 2000 combined.
not really. study history.

Last edited by NewToCA; 11-14-2007 at 09:04 PM..
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Old 11-14-2007, 06:42 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oktaren View Post
not really. study history.

Wow. GREAT rebuttal!

Quote:
Originally Posted by oktaren
well, i don't believe in social services or the abuse of any natural resources. i think you either have open borders or closed borders, there is nothing in between. at this point, the u.s. has open borders, if you want to close them, lets go for it, close them all, to people and goods.
Who "doesn't believe in social services"? Public schools, police departments, etc. are all necessary for this thing we call "civilized life." If you don't like "social services" you can find plenty examples of the alternative in Somalia and Afghanistan.

And you don't believe in the "abuse of natural resources?" HA! ANYONE who advocates "open borders" advocates an abuse of natural resources. PERIOD. Growth must be MANAGED.

If you have a refrigerator full of food for YOUR family, you not only have to ration out the food in that fridge so that each member of your family gets enough, but you are allowed to stop people from entering your home without your permission to take up residence and eat your food. Of course, you can have guests come in, and you can even invite grandma to live with you, but that is YOUR choice because it is YOUR home and YOUR food.

THAT is why your assumption that it's "all or nothing" is a joke. If that's so, give me your address so I can come live with you for free. While I'm there I'll make you watch what I want to watch on TV, consume your food, and I'll slowly start to bring friends and family to shack up in YOUR home.

If you say "I can't," then I say you MUST or you cannot ever invite anyone to visit or live in your home. EVER!
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Old 11-14-2007, 06:46 PM
 
491 posts, read 1,291,100 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TriMT7 View Post
Wow. GREAT rebuttal!



Who "doesn't believe in social services"? Public schools, police departments, etc. are all necessary for this thing we call "civilized life." If you don't like "social services" you can find plenty examples of the alternative in Somalia and Afghanistan.

And you don't believe in the "abuse of natural resources?" HA! ANYONE who advocates "open borders" advocates an abuse of natural resources. PERIOD. Growth must be MANAGED.

If you have a refrigerator full of food for YOUR family, you not only have to ration out the food in that fridge so that each member of your family gets enough, but you are allowed to stop people from entering your home without your permission to take up residence and eat your food. Of course, you can have guests come in, and you can even invite grandma to live with you, but that is YOUR choice because it is YOUR home and YOUR food.

THAT is why your assumption that it's "all or nothing" is a joke. If that's so, give me your address so I can come live with you for free. While I'm there I'll make you watch what I want to watch on TV, consume your food, and I'll slowly start to bring friends and family to shack up in YOUR home.

If you say "I can't," then I say you MUST or you cannot ever invite anyone to visit or live in your home. EVER!
sorry, i don't own a home.

and no, i don't believe in PUBLIC services. who said i advocate open borders? in all honesty i believe in no borders. and how does that require that natural resources must be abused? you can have open borders and abuse or not abuse natural resources, or you can have closed borders and abuse or not abuse natural resources, the two have nothing to do with eachother.
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Old 11-14-2007, 06:57 PM
 
17,279 posts, read 24,961,305 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oktaren View Post
sorry, i don't own a home.

Ah. Which may explain why you might have a problem understanding "pride of ownership" and/or protection of something you've worked hard to build.

Quote:
Originally Posted by oktaren
and no, i don't believe in PUBLIC services.
Well I, and the vast majority of Americans DO, because we realize that civil society and PUBLIC services is what separates "good" places to live (i.e., Europe, Canada, Japan, Australia, the US), from "bad" places to live (I.e., most of Central America, Africa, the Middle East).

Quote:
Originally Posted by oktaren
who said i advocate open borders? in all honesty i believe in no borders.
It's the same thing, functionally speaking.

Quote:
Originally Posted by oktaren
and how does that require that natural resources must be abused? you can have open borders and abuse or not abuse natural resources, or you can have closed borders and abuse or not abuse natural resources, the two have nothing to do with eachother.
The United States is a BIG country, but we already have resource strain because more people = more demand for resources in the form of land, water, food, infrastructure. Already we see parts of the Southeast, where migration has put tremendous burden on the land and air. More cars, more houses, more water needed, and now places like Atlanta are in CRITICAL condition for things like water. Sprawl is out of control, and I hate to say it, but "third worlders" often bring even LESS respect for the land than the average American. Ever watch a formerly middle class neighborhood go " third-world immigrant"? Yeah, it;s pretty much all about bringing the "old country" to the new.... and that is NOT a good thing!

More people is NOT a good thing for this country, and the economy be damned. We have to be able to provide for ALL of the people ALREADY within our borders before we can just allow EVERYONE to come here.

Besides, to what benefit does "no borders" have for ANYONE, when the only thing that keeps the world from being uniformly impoverished are strong borders?
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