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Old 11-14-2007, 07:01 PM
 
491 posts, read 1,291,367 times
Reputation: 83

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Quote:
Originally Posted by TriMT7 View Post
Ah. Which may explain why you might have a problem understanding "pride of ownership" and/or protection of something you've worked hard to build.



Well I, and the vast majority of Americans DO, because we realize that civil society and PUBLIC services is what separates "good" places to live (i.e., Europe, Canada, Japan, Australia, the US), from "bad" places to live (I.e., most of Central America, Africa, the Middle East).



It's the same thing, functionally speaking.



The United States is a BIG country, but we already have resource strain because more people = more demand for resources in the form of land, water, food, infrastructure. Already we see parts of the Southeast, where migration has put tremendous burden on the land and air. More cars, more houses, more water needed, and now places like Atlanta are in CRITICAL condition for things like water. Sprawl is out of control, and I hate to say it, but "third worlders" often bring even LESS respect for the land than the average American. Ever watch a formerly middle class neighborhood go " third-world immigrant"? Yeah, it;s pretty much all about bringing the "old country" to the new.... and that is NOT a good thing!

More people is NOT a good thing for this country, and the economy be damned. We have to be able to provide for ALL of the people ALREADY within our borders before we can just allow EVERYONE to come here.

Besides, to what benefit does "no borders" have for ANYONE, when the only thing that keeps the world from being uniformly impoverished are strong borders?
first, we shouldn't be providing for anyone. they should provide for themselves, either that or they die.

and sorry but, open borders means there is a border to be open. no borders means no borders.

so, you don't want open borders? so you are in favor of closing them off? closed to people, closed to goods? if we are going to be a nation obsessed with security, this is the only option.
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Old 11-14-2007, 07:14 PM
 
17,279 posts, read 24,965,630 times
Reputation: 8519
Quote:
Originally Posted by oktaren View Post
first, we shouldn't be providing for anyone. they should provide for themselves, either that or they die.
Well, luckily for the economy and well-being of the United States, yours is a marginalized opinion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by oktaren
and sorry but, open borders means there is a border to be open. no borders means no borders.
An open border is the functional equivalent of "no borders." Or do you not see how leaving your door open 24/7 means you might as well take the door off and throw it away?

Quote:
Originally Posted by oktaren
so, you don't want open borders? so you are in favor of closing them off? closed to people, closed to goods? if we are going to be a nation obsessed with security, this is the only option.
Not having an open border does not mean a closed border. It means being able to restrict who and what gets in. We already do it. You can't ship nuclear waste to the shores of this nation, you can't ship unsafe products to the United States.

TECHNICALLY, you're not supposed to be allowed into the US if you are a known criminal. You're certainly not supposed to be allowed to move in if you're a child rapist, serial killer, or other violent person.

I'll go back to the house example because it's easy for most people to make the analogy. I may have a welcome mat out front, but you STILL have to knock, and you sure aint gonna get in covered in mud, for example. Yet, surprise surprise, I can still have guests, food deliveries, even parties. Doesn't mean anyone is allowed in. And if anyone WAS allowed in, I certainly wouldn't want to live in that house anymore.
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Old 11-14-2007, 07:20 PM
 
491 posts, read 1,291,367 times
Reputation: 83
Quote:
Originally Posted by TriMT7 View Post
Well, luckily for the economy and well-being of the United States, yours is a marginalized opinion.



An open border is the functional equivalent of "no borders." Or do you not see how leaving your door open 24/7 means you might as well take the door off and throw it away?



Not having an open border does not mean a closed border. It means being able to restrict who and what gets in. We already do it. You can't ship nuclear waste to the shores of this nation, you can't ship unsafe products to the United States.

TECHNICALLY, you're not supposed to be allowed into the US if you are a known criminal. You're certainly not supposed to be allowed to move in if you're a child rapist, serial killer, or other violent person.

I'll go back to the house example because it's easy for most people to make the analogy. I may have a welcome mat out front, but you STILL have to knock, and you sure aint gonna get in covered in mud, for example. Yet, surprise surprise, I can still have guests, food deliveries, even parties. Doesn't mean anyone is allowed in. And if anyone WAS allowed in, I certainly wouldn't want to live in that house anymore.
no, no borders means there is no border, which means NO GOVERNING BODY with ANY control over the border at all. A closed border is totally closed. which is why its called a closed border. i know exactly what you mean, its just that i don't agree with any of it.
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Old 11-14-2007, 07:20 PM
 
Location: Mesa, Az
21,148 posts, read 36,622,458 times
Reputation: 3785
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nea1 View Post
Well since I didnt own the property I couldnt. Did the native americans have deeds to the land?
Don't start with that 'Native American' bit, please.

If nothing else; many of us so-called 'Euro' and 'African' Americans happen to have American Indian blood so the 'race' argument is irrelevant.

And too; like many other races/ethnicities throughout history, the American Indians lost the land that they lived on. Unfortunate but true.

Besides: some tribes/nations arrived later than others; the Navajo comes to mind-------perhaps they should be forced to leave? I think not.
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Old 11-14-2007, 07:21 PM
 
491 posts, read 1,291,367 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ArizonaBear View Post
Don't start with that 'Native American' bit, please.

If nothing else; many of us so-called 'Euro' and 'African' Americans happen to have American Indian blood so the 'race' argument is irrelevant.

And too; like many other races/ethnicities throughout history, the American Indians lost the land that they lived on. Unfortunate but true.

Besides: some tribes/nations arrived later than others; the Navajo comes to mind-------perhaps they should be forced to leave? I think not.
That wasn't the point, the point was people will always come, no matter what you do. i.e. the illegal immigrants
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Old 11-14-2007, 07:22 PM
 
Location: Colorado
10,017 posts, read 16,694,959 times
Reputation: 2086
Quote:
Originally Posted by ArizonaBear View Post
Don't start with that 'Native American' bit, please.

If nothing else; many of us so-called 'Euro' and 'African' Americans happen to have American Indian blood so the 'race' argument is irrelevant.

And too; like many other races/ethnicities throughout history, the American Indians lost the land that they lived on. Unfortunate but true.

Besides: some tribes/nations arrived later than others; the Navajo comes to mind-------perhaps they should be forced to leave? I think not.
Go back and read the posts, I didnt start the native american "bit"
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Old 11-14-2007, 07:23 PM
 
Location: Mesa, Az
21,148 posts, read 36,622,458 times
Reputation: 3785
Quote:
Originally Posted by oktaren View Post
That wasn't the point, the point was people will always come, no matter what you do. i.e. the illegal immigrants
And we will keep fighting them off.

Apparently; you do not truly understand us as a people:

Slow to anger; but, watch out once provoked!
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Old 11-14-2007, 07:24 PM
 
Location: Mesa, Az
21,148 posts, read 36,622,458 times
Reputation: 3785
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nea1 View Post
Go back and read the posts, I didnt start the native american "bit"
My bad: the above post was directed towards oktaren, not you.
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Old 11-14-2007, 07:26 PM
 
17,279 posts, read 24,965,630 times
Reputation: 8519
Quote:
Originally Posted by oktaren View Post
no, no borders means there is no border, which means NO GOVERNING BODY with ANY control over the border at all. A closed border is totally closed. which is why its called a closed border. i know exactly what you mean, its just that i don't agree with any of it.

... and can't articulate a convincing rebuttal.

That's OK. It happens a lot around here.



But, just to be sure, it doesn't matter what you call something. What matters is the RESULT of that thing. If A has the same result as B, then there really is no difference between A and B except superficially.
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Old 11-14-2007, 07:27 PM
 
491 posts, read 1,291,367 times
Reputation: 83
Quote:
Originally Posted by ArizonaBear View Post
And we will keep fighting them off.

Apparently; you do not truly understand us as a people:

Slow to anger; but, watch out once provoked!
And they will continue to come, i hope you enjoy wasting your time and energy.
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