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Old 10-03-2012, 09:26 AM
 
31,514 posts, read 14,580,770 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by All American NYC View Post
Doesn't matter what the fertility rate is in our country.

Its no reason to come here illegally.
Exactly, and if our economy were better and 23 million Americans weren't out of work they might want to produce more children. We are overpopulated anyway so extinction isn't going to be a problem for our country. If we need more people we will have them come legally. We don't need to be saved by a bunch of illegal immigrants giving birth on our soil, changing our culture and language and living off the government dole to support the many kids they can't feed themselves.
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Old 10-03-2012, 09:39 AM
 
17,279 posts, read 24,969,411 times
Reputation: 8524
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mach50 View Post
He is right though, the Virginia Company was not invited and the Indians were thought to be savages.

Actually the illegals of today are by far a more invited guest.


There's major flaws in the guy's arguments. We'll set aside his obvious self hatred issues (what a dweeb).

First, all nations, today, recognize the need for immigration and border controls. This includes all nations from which we derive illegal immigrants. These nations, who are also colonized and comprised of peoples who are genetically "majority European American," even if they are heavily mixed (looking at you, Mexico) have their own stringent immigration laws.

Second, back in the 1400s and 1500s, there was no enlightened concept of human rights, etc. that we now hold dear. It is simply silly to hold guilt or view history through the prism of today's values. Hold CURRENT generations and people accountable for the way they act TODAY. There are very few population groups in this world whose ancestors were not oppressed at some point, and fewer still whose ancestors were not oppressors of some other population.


Third, even as late as the early 1900s, the United States accepted wave after wave of immigration as acceptable, because there was no social safety net, concern for controlled and sustainable development, and no care for resource allocation and protection. No welfare, no WIC, no student loans, no social security, no entitlements. That is not the case today.

Immigration laws have grown to ensure that immigrants that enter this country are 1) needed, 2) not criminals or sick, and 3) will not jeopardize the social welfare state or become dependents.



Period. The United States cannot simultaneously be the dumping ground for the world's unwanted poor while it tries to eradicate poverty and maintain a base level of existence for all people in the country. We cannot decry wealth inequality while importing Latin America or Asia's underclass by the millions. That is a sure way to guarantee there'll be a wide gap forever.

We need immigrants by the boat load who contribute to the dynamism and innovation of the economy. Scientists, computer guys, educated types.
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Old 10-03-2012, 01:59 PM
 
31,514 posts, read 14,580,770 times
Reputation: 8377
Quote:
Originally Posted by TriMT7 View Post
There's major flaws in the guy's arguments. We'll set aside his obvious self hatred issues (what a dweeb).

First, all nations, today, recognize the need for immigration and border controls. This includes all nations from which we derive illegal immigrants. These nations, who are also colonized and comprised of peoples who are genetically "majority European American," even if they are heavily mixed (looking at you, Mexico) have their own stringent immigration laws.

Second, back in the 1400s and 1500s, there was no enlightened concept of human rights, etc. that we now hold dear. It is simply silly to hold guilt or view history through the prism of today's values. Hold CURRENT generations and people accountable for the way they act TODAY. There are very few population groups in this world whose ancestors were not oppressed at some point, and fewer still whose ancestors were not oppressors of some other population.


Third, even as late as the early 1900s, the United States accepted wave after wave of immigration as acceptable, because there was no social safety net, concern for controlled and sustainable development, and no care for resource allocation and protection. No welfare, no WIC, no student loans, no social security, no entitlements. That is not the case today.

Immigration laws have grown to ensure that immigrants that enter this country are 1) needed, 2) not criminals or sick, and 3) will not jeopardize the social welfare state or become dependents.



Period. The United States cannot simultaneously be the dumping ground for the world's unwanted poor while it tries to eradicate poverty and maintain a base level of existence for all people in the country. We cannot decry wealth inequality while importing Latin America or Asia's underclass by the millions. That is a sure way to guarantee there'll be a wide gap forever.

We need immigrants by the boat load who contribute to the dynamism and innovation of the economy. Scientists, computer guys, educated types.
Excellent post! I hope those living in the past on this forum can understand the wisdom of your words.
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Old 10-03-2012, 03:01 PM
 
Location: Maryland
15,179 posts, read 15,816,809 times
Reputation: 3028
Quote:
Originally Posted by TriMT7 View Post
There's major flaws in the guy's arguments. We'll set aside his obvious self hatred issues (what a dweeb).

First, all nations, today, recognize the need for immigration and border controls. This includes all nations from which we derive illegal immigrants. These nations, who are also colonized and comprised of peoples who are genetically "majority European American," even if they are heavily mixed (looking at you, Mexico) have their own stringent immigration laws.

Second, back in the 1400s and 1500s, there was no enlightened concept of human rights, etc. that we now hold dear. It is simply silly to hold guilt or view history through the prism of today's values. Hold CURRENT generations and people accountable for the way they act TODAY. There are very few population groups in this world whose ancestors were not oppressed at some point, and fewer still whose ancestors were not oppressors of some other population.


Third, even as late as the early 1900s, the United States accepted wave after wave of immigration as acceptable, because there was no social safety net, concern for controlled and sustainable development, and no care for resource allocation and protection. No welfare, no WIC, no student loans, no social security, no entitlements. That is not the case today.

Immigration laws have grown to ensure that immigrants that enter this country are 1) needed, 2) not criminals or sick, and 3) will not jeopardize the social welfare state or become dependents.



Period. The United States cannot simultaneously be the dumping ground for the world's unwanted poor while it tries to eradicate poverty and maintain a base level of existence for all people in the country. We cannot decry wealth inequality while importing Latin America or Asia's underclass by the millions. That is a sure way to guarantee there'll be a wide gap forever.

We need immigrants by the boat load who contribute to the dynamism and innovation of the economy. Scientists, computer guys, educated types.
You nailed it! Sadly, many are so blinded by party/ethnic loyalty, or bleeding heart syndrome, your eloquent post will go right over their heads. But, it's the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
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Old 10-03-2012, 06:42 PM
 
Location: Jacurutu
5,302 posts, read 4,012,769 times
Reputation: 601
Quote:
Originally Posted by TriMT7 View Post
...We need immigrants by the boat load who contribute to the dynamism and innovation of the economy. Scientists, computer guys, educated types.
Since other responses indicate support, what is holding these "educated types" from immigrating?...
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Old 10-03-2012, 07:02 PM
 
20,611 posts, read 12,290,347 times
Reputation: 5895
Quote:
Originally Posted by TriMT7 View Post
There's major flaws in the guy's arguments. We'll set aside his obvious self hatred issues (what a dweeb).

First, all nations, today, recognize the need for immigration and border controls. This includes all nations from which we derive illegal immigrants. These nations, who are also colonized and comprised of peoples who are genetically "majority European American," even if they are heavily mixed (looking at you, Mexico) have their own stringent immigration laws.

Second, back in the 1400s and 1500s, there was no enlightened concept of human rights, etc. that we now hold dear. It is simply silly to hold guilt or view history through the prism of today's values. Hold CURRENT generations and people accountable for the way they act TODAY. There are very few population groups in this world whose ancestors were not oppressed at some point, and fewer still whose ancestors were not oppressors of some other population.


Third, even as late as the early 1900s, the United States accepted wave after wave of immigration as acceptable, because there was no social safety net, concern for controlled and sustainable development, and no care for resource allocation and protection. No welfare, no WIC, no student loans, no social security, no entitlements. That is not the case today.

Immigration laws have grown to ensure that immigrants that enter this country are 1) needed, 2) not criminals or sick, and 3) will not jeopardize the social welfare state or become dependents.



Period. The United States cannot simultaneously be the dumping ground for the world's unwanted poor while it tries to eradicate poverty and maintain a base level of existence for all people in the country. We cannot decry wealth inequality while importing Latin America or Asia's underclass by the millions. That is a sure way to guarantee there'll be a wide gap forever.

We need immigrants by the boat load who contribute to the dynamism and innovation of the economy. Scientists, computer guys, educated types.
Agreed. Especially that part that under 1400 AD rules; it was Ok for cultures to fight and kill each other. God knows there was a LOT of nasty stuff in Europe then. God knows the Aztecs def had the rep of killing weaker Indian groups and so on.
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Old 10-03-2012, 07:03 PM
 
25,060 posts, read 22,118,541 times
Reputation: 11576
Quote:
Originally Posted by IBMMuseum View Post
Since other responses indicate support, what is holding these "educated types" from immigrating?...
Most of the educated immigrants are from Europe, ergo, white people. That's not "diverse" plus most of those countries have higher or as high human development and access to opportunity that the US does. Why move across the Atlantic when most people already have what the US has? Most Europeans most likely move to the US these days for political reasons, or because they want to live in a detached house with a yard with hot, sunny summers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TriMT7 View Post
There's major flaws in the guy's arguments. We'll set aside his obvious self hatred issues (what a dweeb).

First, all nations, today, recognize the need for immigration and border controls. This includes all nations from which we derive illegal immigrants. These nations, who are also colonized and comprised of peoples who are genetically "majority European American," even if they are heavily mixed (looking at you, Mexico) have their own stringent immigration laws.

Second, back in the 1400s and 1500s, there was no enlightened concept of human rights, etc. that we now hold dear. It is simply silly to hold guilt or view history through the prism of today's values. Hold CURRENT generations and people accountable for the way they act TODAY. There are very few population groups in this world whose ancestors were not oppressed at some point, and fewer still whose ancestors were not oppressors of some other population.


Third, even as late as the early 1900s, the United States accepted wave after wave of immigration as acceptable, because there was no social safety net, concern for controlled and sustainable development, and no care for resource allocation and protection. No welfare, no WIC, no student loans, no social security, no entitlements. That is not the case today.

Immigration laws have grown to ensure that immigrants that enter this country are 1) needed, 2) not criminals or sick, and 3) will not jeopardize the social welfare state or become dependents.



Period. The United States cannot simultaneously be the dumping ground for the world's unwanted poor while it tries to eradicate poverty and maintain a base level of existence for all people in the country. We cannot decry wealth inequality while importing Latin America or Asia's underclass by the millions. That is a sure way to guarantee there'll be a wide gap forever.

We need immigrants by the boat load who contribute to the dynamism and innovation of the economy. Scientists, computer guys, educated types.
This post is exactly it. Fact of the matter is, there is no such thing as an "American" culture as Oldglory claims there is. Today's Mexicans are pretty much treated the same way as yesterday's Irish and Italian immigrants. Italians were very discriminated against because they spoke a Latin language, had a Latin based culture, and were Catholic. They were yesterday's threats to change the "culture of America", yet every Italian-American living here speaks only English or English as their primary language, and the Italians came here in huge numbers and lived together and formed exclusive neighborhoods.

Of course, we didn't have a welfare state back then so there wasn't any pressure on our financial purse. But, you can't have unlimited immigration, legal or illegal, while having a welfare state at the same time. It simply won't work
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Old 10-03-2012, 08:28 PM
 
31,514 posts, read 14,580,770 times
Reputation: 8377
Quote:
Originally Posted by theunbrainwashed View Post
Most of the educated immigrants are from Europe, ergo, white people. That's not "diverse" plus most of those countries have higher or as high human development and access to opportunity that the US does. Why move across the Atlantic when most people already have what the US has? Most Europeans most likely move to the US these days for political reasons, or because they want to live in a detached house with a yard with hot, sunny summers.



This post is exactly it. Fact of the matter is, there is no such thing as an "American" culture as Oldglory claims there is. Today's Mexicans are pretty much treated the same way as yesterday's Irish and Italian immigrants. Italians were very discriminated against because they spoke a Latin language, had a Latin based culture, and were Catholic. They were yesterday's threats to change the "culture of America", yet every Italian-American living here speaks only English or English as their primary language, and the Italians came here in huge numbers and lived together and formed exclusive neighborhoods.

Of course, we didn't have a welfare state back then so there wasn't any pressure on our financial purse. But, you can't have unlimited immigration, legal or illegal, while having a welfare state at the same time. It simply won't work
I disagree. We do have an American culture and one of those identifying components is the English langauge. I dont' know of any Mexicans that are here legally that are being mistreated. The objection is to those here illegally.
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Old 10-03-2012, 08:44 PM
 
25,060 posts, read 22,118,541 times
Reputation: 11576
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oldglory View Post
I disagree. We do have an American culture and one of those identifying components is the English langauge. I dont' know of any Mexicans that are here legally that are being mistreated. The objection is to those here illegally.
I think we can agree on one thing. We both care about America, and we're both concerned about it. However, our priorities are different. I place more importance on our political culture than our linguistic/sociological culture, I think that's probably the one thing that distinguishes us. For me, I'm more lax on forcing 1st generation immigrants to be fluent in English (it's extremely hard to be, you won't understand this if English is your native language) however, encouraging people to learn and assimilate into our political culture is far easier and more beneficial in the long term. English is not my first language, so that's why I'm more sympathetic towards people that don't speak English fluently because it's not easy to learn a new foreign language fluently, especially if you're older than 25. English is one hell of a tough language to learn, and most foreigners that come live here are at least 25-30 years old.
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Old 10-03-2012, 08:57 PM
 
31,514 posts, read 14,580,770 times
Reputation: 8377
Quote:
Originally Posted by theunbrainwashed View Post
I think we can agree on one thing. We both care about America, and we're both concerned about it. However, our priorities are different. I place more importance on our political culture than our linguistic/sociological culture, I think that's probably the one thing that distinguishes us. For me, I'm more lax on forcing 1st generation immigrants to be fluent in English (it's extremely hard to be, you won't understand this if English is your native language) however, encouraging people to learn and assimilate into our political culture is far easier and more beneficial in the long term. English is not my first language, so that's why I'm more sympathetic towards people that don't speak English fluently because it's not easy to learn a new foreign language fluently, especially if you're older than 25. English is one hell of a tough language to learn, and most foreigners that come live here are at least 25-30 years old.
I put equal importance on those two things. I have never said that 1st generation immigrants should be fluent in English just that they should be learning it and in particular are practicing it out in public. That is how one becomes fluent. The more you use it the more fluent you become. There are many that have lived here for 10 plus years and don't make the effort to at least learn passible English. That is what happens when you have immigrants coming from mostly one ethnic group and they move into ethnic neighborhoods. They don't feel the need to assimilate to our language. It is too easy not to.

I have found that many who are actually citizens still choose their native language out in public rather than English. It is a pet peeve of mine. It reeks of disrespect to our national language, IMO.
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