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Old 10-09-2012, 04:56 PM
 
Location: Jacurutu
5,302 posts, read 4,016,445 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
This specific article has been extensively discussed on the forum before, even though it does not directly relate to illegal immigration. The representative man and daughter pictured and quoted in the article are both U.S. citizens, and wife/mother was a Legal Permanent Resident during the time in the United States. I had even wondered aloud the last time this was posted whether the family was already back in the U.S. by now (and very probably, all U.S. citizens).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
...On the other hand, many Mexican children attending our schools are not U.S. citizens. This scam has been happening for years. Why the U.S. allows itself to be used and abused by Mexico is beyond me. Fortunately, some school districts have had enough and are taking action...
Exactly, two of them are within my household! What sort of "scam" is my family taking part in? How are my two stepchildren that are not U.S. citizens yet "abusing" the United States, or are in any part dependent on Mexico to provide their education?

I expect the regular backpedaling, but who knows, you might plunge ahead to tell me they better not have a free breakfast at school! The focus around here has returned to what those Mexicans are doing again, whether it is based on illegal immigration or not. But that is part of a cycle allowed to play out here, until it occasionally bites someone.
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Old 10-09-2012, 06:01 PM
 
Location: Maryland
15,179 posts, read 15,826,194 times
Reputation: 3028
Quote:
Originally Posted by IBMMuseum View Post
This specific article has been extensively discussed on the forum before, even though it does not directly relate to illegal immigration. The representative man and daughter pictured and quoted in the article are both U.S. citizens, and wife/mother was a Legal Permanent Resident during the time in the United States. I had even wondered aloud the last time this was posted whether the family was already back in the U.S. by now (and very probably, all U.S. citizens).



Exactly, two of them are within my household! What sort of "scam" is my family taking part in? How are my two stepchildren that are not U.S. citizens yet "abusing" the United States, or are in any part dependent on Mexico to provide their education?

I expect the regular backpedaling, but who knows, you might plunge ahead to tell me they better not have a free breakfast at school! The focus around here has returned to what those Mexicans are doing again, whether it is based on illegal immigration or not. But that is part of a cycle allowed to play out here, until it occasionally bites someone.
Yes, the article has been discussed. However, you did mention the citizenship status of many crossing the border, did you not?

Why must you constantly include your family in these discussions? Are your "non-citizen stepchildren" living in Mexico while attending school in this country?
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Old 10-09-2012, 07:11 PM
 
Location: Jacurutu
5,302 posts, read 4,016,445 times
Reputation: 601
Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
Yes, the article has been discussed. However, you did mention the citizenship status of many crossing the border, did you not?

Why must you constantly include your family in these discussions? Are your "non-citizen stepchildren" living in Mexico while attending school in this country?
You defined it as "Mexican children attending our schools [that] are not U.S. citizens", which certainly is a category that encompasses them. You are not mentioning the citizenship or immigration status of virtually all of these kids crossing the U.S.-Mexico border (through a Port of Entry) on weekdays to attend school allows them to be lawfully present in the United States. U.S. citizenship of any of the children does not make it any more lawful to attend school when they don't live in a school district, nor the lack of it make it any worse.

Why is your definition to the Mexican National children, rather than all of the students crossing a border to attend school, while not physically residing in that school district?...
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Old 10-09-2012, 07:47 PM
 
Location: Maryland
15,179 posts, read 15,826,194 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IBMMuseum View Post
You defined it as "Mexican children attending our schools [that] are not U.S. citizens", which certainly is a category that encompasses them. You are not mentioning the citizenship or immigration status of virtually all of these kids crossing the U.S.-Mexico border (through a Port of Entry) on weekdays to attend school allows them to be lawfully present in the United States. U.S. citizenship of any of the children does not make it any more lawful to attend school when they don't live in a school district, nor the lack of it make it any worse.

Why is your definition to the Mexican National children, rather than all of the students crossing a border to attend school, while not physically residing in that school district?...
Give it a rest. We were discussing Mexican children living in Mexico who attend U.S. public schools. You stated many are U.S. citizens. I agreed, and mentioned while many are U.S. citizens, if they are not living in this country, they should not be allowed to attend our schools free of charge. I then added that some of the Mexican children who enter this country to attend our schools are not U.S. citizens. We were not discussing Mexican children who live in this country legally or illegally, period. So, your stepchildren have absolutely nothing to do with this discussion. While it is certainly costing us billions to educate non-citizen children, that's a totally different topic.

Again, I don't give a damn if they are U.S. citizens. They don't live in this country, their parents are not paying property taxes, and they shouldn't attend our tax-funded public schools. In addition, many are attending our schools through fraud, which is indicated in the article I posted. Or, do you actually believe over 20 children reside at the same empty lot?

You said you have children attending public schools. So, you should realize you can't send your child to a school outside his/her district. Unless our borders changed overnight, Mexico is not in ANY U.S. school district. According to Plyler v. Doe, every child living in this country must have access to a public school education. That does not include children living outside this country.
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Old 10-10-2012, 04:11 AM
 
Location: Too far from home.
8,743 posts, read 5,557,372 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IBMMuseum View Post
An irony about your statement is that illicit drug usage in Mexico is low, the Mexican cartels have a much more profitable U.S. market that they focus on. The "corruption" is subjective, and we have little room to judge them on it (you'll get a Michael Corleone quote back from me). In no way is Mexico "dependent" on the United States or any remittances, although President Calderon is correct to say when the United States sneezes, Mexico catches a cold.

Here is data that is almost nine years old, but shows the North American economies relationship to one another: http://www.migrationpolicy.org/pubs/...ct%20sheet.pdf

"Close the border" (singular, referring to a specific area) is such an outdated concept. It shows you are willing to throw out the legitimate traffic and trade with the bad. I'm suggesting something that is ultimately less costly, more beneficial, and ends the status quo of having somewhere around 11 million illegal aliens present in the United States.
I didn't say anything about illicit drug usage. Drugs are a commodity in Mexico, "traded" in the US. How do the cartels profit? Transporting their "commodity" into the US. How many people in Mexico have died at the hands of the drug cartels? If the government wasn't corrupt why aren't they doing more about the cartels? Why isn't Mexico doing more about securing their side of the border, working with the US rather than against the US, so as not to allow Mexicans to cross over? Why doesn't Mexico welcome those from other South American countries into their country, yet they think that the US has a responsibility to welcome and care for illegals from their country?

Could it be that the profit government and the police see is too hard to resist? Without cartels who would be lining their pockets? Do we have a problem with drugs and illegals coming in from Canada? Yet the US upped the security at the Canadian border as if drugs and illegals coming out of Canada were the problem, not Mexico.

A sneeze is a sympton. The cold is the problem. Cure the cold, stop the sneezing. You seem to think that the trade brings more value which offsets the cost to taxpayers to provide for illegals. Trade doesn't depend on welfare, illegals do. Trade doesn't make demands on taxpayers, illegals do. I'm sure the benefits of trade does not outweigh the "benefits" of illegals in the US.

A report that is 9 years old does not bear any weight in what is going on in this country now.
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Old 10-10-2012, 10:04 AM
 
Location: Jacurutu
5,302 posts, read 4,016,445 times
Reputation: 601
Quote:
Originally Posted by softblueyz View Post
I didn't say anything about illicit drug usage. Drugs are a commodity in Mexico, "traded" in the US. How do the cartels profit? Transporting their "commodity" into the US. How many people in Mexico have died at the hands of the drug cartels? If the government wasn't corrupt why aren't they doing more about the cartels? Why isn't Mexico doing more about securing their side of the border, working with the US rather than against the US, so as not to allow Mexicans to cross over? Why doesn't Mexico welcome those from other South American countries into their country, yet they think that the US has a responsibility to welcome and care for illegals from their country?

Could it be that the profit government and the police see is too hard to resist? Without cartels who would be lining their pockets? Do we have a problem with drugs and illegals coming in from Canada? Yet the US upped the security at the Canadian border as if drugs and illegals coming out of Canada were the problem, not Mexico...
The government of Mexico is in a life and death struggle with the cartels. Thankfully they are gaining some ground now, mainly against the Zetas. When your opponent wants to kill you, it is less easy to bribe you, good because of the fact that the drug cartels have enough money to buy anyone.

In Mexico there is a saying: "Plata o plomo". "Silver or lead". Bribed by silver, or shot by lead.

The Mexican government (about to shift parties) is doing quite well for what it is up against, but it needs some help...

Quote:
Originally Posted by softblueyz View Post
...A sneeze is a sympton. The cold is the problem. Cure the cold, stop the sneezing. You seem to think that the trade brings more value which offsets the cost to taxpayers to provide for illegals. Trade doesn't depend on welfare, illegals do. Trade doesn't make demands on taxpayers, illegals do. I'm sure the benefits of trade does not outweigh the "benefits" of illegals in the US.

A report that is 9 years old does not bear any weight in what is going on in this country now.
Just the statement alone that Mexico is the second trading partner with the United States should be able to make the case. $232 billion per year in 2002, $268 billion in 2005 (a later report is at http://www.migrationpolicy.org/pubs/...exico_1005.pdf). You're being amazingly cavalier to an economy that most likely increased from the numbers shown here.

A desire for a Korean-style border and economic relations between Mexico and the United States gains us nothing, and likely would make things much worse. Why don't you think that our relationship with Mexico can't be shaped into something like we have with Canada? A disparity across a border always bleeds, we need to help that economy with legitimate trade, and shift it away from being based on drugs and migrants.

The economy has shown itself to being the biggest factor affecting migration, this topic was started on that notion, and the evidence is all around us...
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Old 10-10-2012, 10:18 AM
 
31,722 posts, read 14,631,102 times
Reputation: 8458
Quote:
Originally Posted by IBMMuseum View Post
The government of Mexico is in a life and death struggle with the cartels. Thankfully they are gaining some ground now, mainly against the Zetas. When your opponent wants to kill you, it is less easy to bribe you, good because of the fact that the drug cartels have enough money to buy anyone.

In Mexico there is a saying: "Plata o plomo". "Silver or lead". Bribed by silver, or shot by lead.

The Mexican government (about to shift parties) is doing quite well for what it is up against, but it needs some help...



Just the statement alone that Mexico is the second trading partner with the United States should be able to make the case. $232 billion per year in 2002, $268 billion in 2005 (a later report is at http://www.migrationpolicy.org/pubs/...exico_1005.pdf). You're being amazingly cavalier to an economy that most likely increased from the numbers shown here.

A desire for a Korean-style border and economic relations between Mexico and the United States gains us nothing, and likely would make things much worse. Why don't you think that our relationship with Mexico can't be shaped into something like we have with Canada? A disparity across a border always bleeds, we need to help that economy with legitimate trade, and shift it away from being based on drugs and migrants.

The economy has shown itself to being the biggest factor affecting migration, this topic was started on that notion, and the evidence is all around us...
Aren't we already involved with Mexico trying to stop the drug cartels? Aren't we already donating monies to Mexico for various things? Why doesn't Mexico fix its own economy and create jobs in their own country? Why do they need the U.S. to help them do that? I think both sides prefer the status quo. Our greedy employers are benefitting from the cheap, illegal labor and Mexico is enjoying those billions in remittances while dumping their underclass on us. We have trade with Mexico alright ....slave trade. All the while regular Americans are paying a steep price for it with nothing in return for them. The solution to another country's economic woes certainly shouldn't be importing millions of their underclass to a different country where they aren't needed and in fact will have a negative impact on their citizens.
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Old 10-11-2012, 08:08 AM
 
47,576 posts, read 58,772,681 times
Reputation: 22168
Quote:
Originally Posted by IBMMuseum View Post
The government of Mexico is in a life and death struggle with the cartels. Thankfully they are gaining some ground now, mainly against the Zetas. When your opponent wants to kill you, it is less easy to bribe you, good because of the fact that the drug cartels have enough money to buy anyone.

In Mexico there is a saying: "Plata o plomo". "Silver or lead". Bribed by silver, or shot by lead.

The Mexican government (about to shift parties) is doing quite well for what it is up against, but it needs some help...



Just the statement alone that Mexico is the second trading partner with the United States should be able to make the case. $232 billion per year in 2002, $268 billion in 2005 (a later report is at http://www.migrationpolicy.org/pubs/...exico_1005.pdf). You're being amazingly cavalier to an economy that most likely increased from the numbers shown here.

A desire for a Korean-style border and economic relations between Mexico and the United States gains us nothing, and likely would make things much worse. Why don't you think that our relationship with Mexico can't be shaped into something like we have with Canada? A disparity across a border always bleeds, we need to help that economy with legitimate trade, and shift it away from being based on drugs and migrants.

The economy has shown itself to being the biggest factor affecting migration, this topic was started on that notion, and the evidence is all around us...
This really is some double talk - On one hand, Mexico is all about silver or bullets -- a corrupt narco-regime with corrupt violent killers who would just as soon shoot you as look at you. Then you want wide open borders and to equate them with a sane nation like Canada.

The open borders are not helping our economy. Sending millions of jobs to Mexico and allowing Mexico to send us it's most illiterate indigent people is not a benefit to the USA in any way shape or form.

Allowing Mexico to continue to use the USA and dump on us is not helping Mexico stand on it's own two feet. Why would the filthy rich Mexicans ever choose to build schools on the Mexican side when it's so very easy to use the schools in the USA? Why build hospitals? Why make reforms?

And our $16 trillion and fast growing debt and 8% unemployment are pretty good indications of the economy these open borders bring. The USA border region is one of the poorest regions of the USA.
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Old 10-11-2012, 08:19 AM
 
47,576 posts, read 58,772,681 times
Reputation: 22168
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oldglory View Post
Aren't we already involved with Mexico trying to stop the drug cartels? Aren't we already donating monies to Mexico for various things? Why doesn't Mexico fix its own economy and create jobs in their own country? Why do they need the U.S. to help them do that? I think both sides prefer the status quo. Our greedy employers are benefitting from the cheap, illegal labor and Mexico is enjoying those billions in remittances while dumping their underclass on us. We have trade with Mexico alright ....slave trade. All the while regular Americans are paying a steep price for it with nothing in return for them. The solution to another country's economic woes certainly shouldn't be importing millions of their underclass to a different country where they aren't needed and in fact will have a negative impact on their citizens.
We're not tryng to stop drug cartels when we keep the border wide open and unenforced. We would help Mexico more by taking control over our border back.

Mexico won't fix it's economy for it's very lowest classes when it has the easy solution of getting them to the USA - and insisting that we keep them. Any time any are sent back home, Mexico's government is outraged -- it does not want it's people back.

The very rich on both sides of the border benefit and that's all that benefits. Of course Mexico's filthy rich don't want to pay taxes to have schools built and the low classes don't mind when they are allowed to bring their children to the USA where the schools give all free supplies and books, even give free breakfasts and lunches and free laptop computers or iPads. In Mexico they might have to contribute something, here it's all free. It's win-win for the, but a big lose-lose for the American taxpayers and also students.

Mexico's middle class is growing, ours is in free fall -- of course Mexico wants us to keep the borders open, it's very rich can keep on getting much richer with the drug trade - huge daily shipments that bring in billions of dollars, even while American lives are destroyed by these drugs. It's very poor can be encouraged to relocate to the USA and Mexico never has to bother with providing them the education and food stamps and free health care they want.

And notice -- in spite of the very massive give-away to "immigrants" from Mexico -- not one law has changed so that Americans can easily move en masse to Mexico. Our most impoverished are not heading there -- there is no even trade. Yes a few retirees may go live there but Mexico is not providing Americans free health care, free educations. This isn't "trade", it's a ripoff to the American people.
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Old 10-11-2012, 09:13 PM
 
Location: Jacurutu
5,302 posts, read 4,016,445 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by malamute View Post
...Then you want wide open borders and to equate them with a sane nation like Canada...
I've never said I wanted "wide open borders", where did you get that?...
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