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Let me start by saying that I'm not an American nor have I ever even visited. My knowledge and perception of the country comes from television, books and movies, like most Europeans. I do have a friend in the Marine Corps, a friend in college in Pennsylvania and some lost relative somewhere. My fascination with the life and culture of America is endless, though.
Rest assured, I'm not some low-skilled worker who's planning on immigrating. This thread is about a different issue entirely.
I guess what I want to know is just how can the issue of illegal immigration be as bad as it seems? As bad as everyone describes it on these forums and in the news? Like how come there's so little control, so few check-ups and the problem keeps getting bigger and bigger and bigger and seemingly messing up the lives of actual citizens?
Everything I keep reading seems so convoluted and hazy and confusing even though it seems that this issue should be something simple? Who actually benefits from them? How come the deportation numbers aren't higher? How come they can actually protest?
I thought I was a bright kid but hey...
Can someone sort of.. break it down for me? Because, seriously, from an outsider's point of view, this is ludicrous and illogical and... weird.
Thanks
-Franklin
Good question....why not look to why people from Africa attempt to get into the EU, pretty much the same reasons.Look at what is/has happened in Spain, note how the entitlements to illegals have now disappeared in Spain. Look at Spain's economic issues, that's not to say that illegals caused it, but only to show that they are part of it. The little control and check-up is due to the fact that the US, unlike Europe, doesn't have you carry around a national ID card or passport like in Europe. Your countries are still somewhat individuals vs our states being all of one nation. Illegal immigration effects you as a citizen of the EU or of the individual nation of which you live, you just don't see it so publicly or politically vocalized.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mach50
For decades Illegal Immigrants were drawn here by US companies to work and there was little problem. It wasn't until the early 2000's when Hispanics started a trend to become the majority in this country, that Illegal Immigration became a hot topic. Some in the US (e.g. Antis in this forum) consider this Hispanic boom in direct correlation to illegal immigration.
The problem is that this economy has ran too long on the backs of Illegals (cheap labor) from Latin America and it is proving difficult to ween US companies and the Government off. Also it has become more complex involving children who were born here to illegal immigrants, whom are now US citizens.
So now you have 3 groups that have formed:
1) Anti's - Jail, Deport entire families, amend the constitution (no more US citizenship), put up walls on the Southern Border.
2) Sympathizers - Those who think the illegals should stay and become active members of society.
3) Reformists - Stop US hiring of illegals, allow those who are here to stay, especially the kids. Fix the problem going forward.
Does that help?
Many illegals come of their own free will, as a right of passage to adulthood. They come for their own economic gain. US companies will hire persons who present the required documents, some will even pay cash so that no documents are required, but that is a big risk to which only small companies will usually partake. There are some companies that create the forged documents, Rabuskin comes to mind here.
The economy has not ran on the backs of illegals, ever. Even in AG illegals are less than 50% of the workers, hardly the backbone of the industry.
Children born here to illegals are only assumed to be US citizens by birth, states can not determine who is or is not a citizen, only the Fed Gov't can do that. If you don't hold a US Passport stating you are a US Citizen, then you can only be assumed to be at best a US National, which isn't the same thing.
Your 3 groups are inane - 1) Anti's want the laws followed, all illegals are to be deported to include the children born here of illegals since there is no proof they are born as US Citizens. 2) Sympathizers should then pay for the illegals. 3) Reformists have had there chance in the past, 7 different times, when will it end?
...If you don't hold a US Passport stating you are a US Citizen, then you can only be assumed to be at best a US National, which isn't the same thing...
Public Service Announcement: Please refrain from voting this November if you do not have a passport saying that you are a U.S. citizen, as a U.S. National may not be so entitled. Actual passports stating such are not very common, so expect that voter turnout will be a fraction of a percent. Note that naturalized U.S. citizens can use their Certificate of Citizenship to confirm their registration and vote.
For decades Illegal Immigrants were drawn here by US companies to work and there was little problem. It wasn't until the early 2000's when Hispanics started a trend to become the majority in this country, that Illegal Immigration became a hot topic. Some in the US (e.g. Antis in this forum) consider this Hispanic boom in direct correlation to illegal immigration.
The problem is that this economy has ran too long on the backs of Illegals (cheap labor) from Latin America and it is proving difficult to ween US companies and the Government off. Also it has become more complex involving children who were born here to illegal immigrants, whom are now US citizens.
So now you have 3 groups that have formed:
1) Anti's - Jail, Deport entire families, amend the constitution (no more US citizenship), put up walls on the Southern Border.
2) Sympathizers - Those who think the illegals should stay and become active members of society.
3) Reformists - Stop US hiring of illegals, allow those who are here to stay, especially the kids. Fix the problem going forward.
Does that help?
You'll get no argument from me on the greedy, corrupt, loathsome employers of illegal aliens. In my opinion, they are lower than pond scum. But, I totally disagree with your assertion that illegal immigration ONLY became an issue due to the growth of the Hispanic population. That's BS, and you know it. But, I suppose you would be remiss if you didn't play the race card. After all, it's numero uno in the pro-illegal script. However, you are either in denial or intellectually dishonest to claim the unprecedented growth of the Hispanic population is not primarily the result of MASSIVE illegal immigration from Spanish-speaking countries, most notably Mexico. It's a fact.
Sorry, but your idea of "reform" has been tested, and it failed miserably. Employers will not stop hiring illegals until they are severely punished, including lengthy prison sentences and forfeiture of assets. I think we both know that's a pipe dream. Too many politicians profit from illegal immigration through the bribes they receive from major corporations, labor unions, special interest groups and so-called "immigrant" advocates. All are peddlers and profiteers of illegal immigration, and their pockets are much too deep for our laws to be enforced.
In 1986, we pardoned 3 million illegal aliens for being here in violation of our laws, and allowed them to stay and have a shot at the American Dream. But, we all know what happened after that generous amnesty. It only served as an incentive for even more illegal immigration. In fact, it resulted in unprecedented numbers of illegal aliens. Why? Because, the government reneged on its promises to secure our borders, have zero tolerance for illegal employment, and zero tolerance for immigration violators.
We don't have special provisions to reward the children of U.S. citizens who choose to live outside the law. Why should the treatment differ for the children of illegal alien? It's an unfortunate fact of life that children often must suffer due to the criminal behavior of their parents. Yet, for some reason, we should spare the children of illegal aliens, while allowing our own to suffer. How does that make sense?
Fix the problem going forward? Now, where have I heard that before? Oh, that's right -- that was exactly what Congress said before they passed the 1986 amnesty. In fact, we were guaranteed the new law would be so effective, we would NEVER need another amnesty. Thus, it was coined our "FINAL" mass amnesty. Fast forward 2012. We now have so many illegal aliens they are actually dictating our laws, thought processes, speech, and even influencing our presidential election.
Given the abysmal results of the last mass amnesty, why on earth would anyone even entertain the thought of doing it again? What makes you think this time will be different? I assure you, it won't. Instead of 12-20+ million illegal aliens, we will have 50+ million. And, then, in the next 20 years, we'll hear the cries for "just one more amnesty." No thanks. Whatever the solution, it damn sure isn't amnesty.
Public Service Announcement: Please refrain from voting this November if you do not have a passport saying that you are a U.S. citizen, as a U.S. National may not be so entitled. Actual passports stating such are not very common, so expect that voter turnout will be a fraction of a percent. Note that naturalized U.S. citizens can use their Certificate of Citizenship to confirm their registration and vote.
That is all.
The state or county in which you live can only assume you are a citizen (they don't verify status when you vote, only residency), the only thing they can verify is if you are a resident of said state and county. A birth certificate shows no status, neither does a drivers license or a SS card, all these documents may prove is that you are a resident or are residing/authorized to be in the US.
Last edited by Liquid Reigns; 10-09-2012 at 05:40 PM..
Public Service Announcement: Please refrain from voting this November if you do not have a passport saying that you are a U.S. citizen, as a U.S. National may not be so entitled. Actual passports stating such are not very common, so expect that voter turnout will be a fraction of a percent. Note that naturalized U.S. citizens can use their Certificate of Citizenship to confirm their registration and vote.
That is all.
In my state, ANYONE can vote. They don't even ask to see your driver's license. That's right. No form of ID is required to vote in Maryland. Just go to your location, tell them your name, they'll check the list, might ask you to "verify" your DOB after they tell you what it is, and you are then directed to your booth.
Considering they issued licenses to illegals for years, no doubt many are registered. Citizenship isn't verified, because voter registration in Maryland is on the honor system. After all, no one would "affirm" citizenship by signing on the line if they weren't actually a U.S. citizen, would they?
For decades Illegal Immigrants were drawn here by US companies to work and there was little problem. It wasn't until the early 2000's when Hispanics started a trend to become the majority in this country, that Illegal Immigration became a hot topic. Some in the US (e.g. Antis in this forum) consider this Hispanic boom in direct correlation to illegal immigration.
The problem is that this economy has ran too long on the backs of Illegals (cheap labor) from Latin America and it is proving difficult to ween US companies and the Government off. Also it has become more complex involving children who were born here to illegal immigrants, whom are now US citizens.
So now you have 3 groups that have formed:
1) Anti's - Jail, Deport entire families, amend the constitution (no more US citizenship), put up walls on the Southern Border.
2) Sympathizers - Those who think the illegals should stay and become active members of society.
3) Reformists - Stop US hiring of illegals, allow those who are here to stay, especially the kids. Fix the problem going forward.
Does that help?
Illegal immigration became more of a problem when it reached critical mass in numbers. If these illegal immigrants had been mostly Chinese the same concern would have arisen because when you have mostly one group here illegally they tend not to assimilate. Assimilation is something that even some citizen groups aren't adhering to. When you combine that type of group with those here illegally it becomes noticeable such as having to press a certain number on the phone for their langauge and hearing that foreign language nearly as much as English and demanding Americans learn that language to get a job in their own country.
Aside from the assimilation factor no matter what groups are here illegally it still comes down to the associated costs, loss of American jobs, added crime and population growth that we don't need and hadn't accounted for. Most of these illegal immigrants are not well educated and have no skills and will end up being a burden to our society.
The right thing to do would be to enforce our immigration laws, not reward those who break them and remove all the incentives to come here such as jobs, benefits and birthright citizenship. Therefore your #1 is the only solution that is the right one for Americans.
Illegal immigration became more of a problem when it reached critical mass in numbers. If these illegal immigrants had been mostly Chinese the same concern would have arisen because when you have mostly one group here illegally they tend not to assimilate. Assimilation is something that even some citizen groups aren't adhering to. When you combine that type of group with those here illegally it becomes noticeable such as having to press a certain number on the phone for their langauge and hearing that foreign language nearly as much as English and demanding Americans learn that language to get a job in their own country.
Aside from the assimilation factor no matter what groups are here illegally it still comes down to the associated costs, loss of American jobs, added crime and population growth that we don't need and hadn't accounted for. Most of these illegal immigrants are not well educated and have no skills and will end up being a burden to our society.
The right thing to do would be to enforce our immigration laws, not reward those who break them and remove all the incentives to come here such as jobs, benefits and birthright citizenship. Therefore your #1 is the only solution that is the right one for Americans.
That's it in a nutshell. Of course, some MUST believe race/ethnicity is the only reason we oppose. My ex is a so-called Hispanic, naturalized citizen from Argentina, and his opposition to illegal immigration makes me look like a pro-illegal.
Odd, I didn't detect any anger in his post. Just stating the facts. Of course the facts always tick off the illegal immigrant supporters so they retaliate with non-sensical remarks and labels.
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Even in AG illegals are less than 50% of the workers, hardly the backbone of the industry.
Oh, that's right -- that was exactly what Congress said before they passed the 1986 amnesty. In fact, we were guaranteed the new law would be so effective, we would NEVER need another amnesty. Thus, it was coined our "FINAL" mass amnesty. Fast forward 2012. We now have so many illegal aliens they are actually dictating our laws, thought processes, speech, and even influencing our presidential election. 
Simply correcting fallacy. 
