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Old 10-15-2012, 12:02 PM
 
Location: Jacurutu
5,302 posts, read 4,015,365 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oldglory View Post
...On another note Mexico is constantly butting into our political affairs and laws in regards to their citizens here illegally.
Cite an example...
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Old 10-15-2012, 12:13 PM
 
31,688 posts, read 14,614,583 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IBMMuseum View Post
No one here has told me where I can see in the video that Guillermo Arévalo Pedroza or any of his family throwing rocks at Border Patrol agents on their airboat...
It isn't there. It is just one big giant conspiracy by our Border Patrol agents to kill as many Mexicans as they can. They hope to get them all so that someday they can put themselves out of a job.
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Old 10-15-2012, 12:16 PM
 
31,688 posts, read 14,614,583 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IBMMuseum View Post
Cite an example...
Are you kidding me? Calderon even made an appearance in congress telling us how to handle our illegal immigration problem. Everytime we try to enforce our immigration laws against Mexicans Mexico gets its panties all in a twist. Let's not play games here. Since you are asking questions of me how about you answer my question? " For the 4th time why would a Border Patrol agent just shoot a Mexican national for no reason? What would be his motive"?
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Old 10-15-2012, 01:07 PM
 
Location: Jacurutu
5,302 posts, read 4,015,365 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oldglory View Post
...Let's not play games here. Since you are asking questions of me how about you answer my question? " For the 4th time why would a Border Patrol agent just shoot a Mexican national for no reason? What would be his motive"?
Back at Post #14:

"I'm not "demonizing" the Border Patrol to say that I feel an agent may have thought he was being fired upon [or had rocks actually thrown at him], and shot at whom he thought it was (Guillermo Arévalo Pedroza was the only individual that was hit, and the shots appear to be from only one agent's weapon). Just like for Agent Nicolas Ivie, the "fog of war" affects these Border Patrol agents like servicemembers in combat. In his case, it resulted in his own death, rather than that of a Mexican."

I thought you did a Vietnam tour. Shots, just as like with a soldier, may not have any other "motive" than removing the perceived threat. Of the Border Patrol shootings, the only one I really feel was malevolent intent was the actions of former Agent Compean.

He fired (and thankfully missed) in anger, going through two magazines aimed at a man fleeing him. Former Agent Ramos reacted from what his partner did (firing the single shot that did hit and injure), and I hold him in a much better light. It's a difficult job, and I agree that border drug smugglers are some of the worst fiends around.

I've recommended it before, find a copy of Lee Morgan's The Reaper's Line to read...
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Old 10-15-2012, 02:03 PM
 
9,243 posts, read 7,103,911 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IBMMuseum View Post
No one here has told me where I can see in the video that Guillermo Arévalo Pedroza or any of his family throwing rocks at Border Patrol agents on their airboat...
Obviously they were unless it was another weapon.
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Old 10-15-2012, 02:20 PM
 
31,688 posts, read 14,614,583 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IBMMuseum View Post
Back at Post #14:

"I'm not "demonizing" the Border Patrol to say that I feel an agent may have thought he was being fired upon [or had rocks actually thrown at him], and shot at whom he thought it was (Guillermo Arévalo Pedroza was the only individual that was hit, and the shots appear to be from only one agent's weapon). Just like for Agent Nicolas Ivie, the "fog of war" affects these Border Patrol agents like servicemembers in combat. In his case, it resulted in his own death, rather than that of a Mexican."

I thought you did a Vietnam tour. Shots, just as like with a soldier, may not have any other "motive" than removing the perceived threat. Of the Border Patrol shootings, the only one I really feel was malevolent intent was the actions of former Agent Compean.

He fired (and thankfully missed) in anger, going through two magazines aimed at a man fleeing him. Former Agent Ramos reacted from what his partner did (firing the single shot that did hit and injure), and I hold him in a much better light. It's a difficult job, and I agree that border drug smugglers are some of the worst fiends around.

I've recommended it before, find a copy of Lee Morgan's The Reaper's Line to read...
As long as there is a perceived threat to one's life that is all the justification one needs to relatiate. Rock throwing is more that a perceived threat, however.
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Old 10-15-2012, 03:13 PM
 
Location: Too far from home.
8,743 posts, read 5,555,160 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IBMMuseum View Post
Immigrant U.S. servicemembers already have a fast-tracked, cost-free naturalization process...
I'm aware of that.

What I am not aware of, and maybe your can answer this: If they die while serving do their immediate family, who may be illegal (excluding parents), get the same benefits as a family of a US citizen? If they complete their service does the immediate family, who may be illegal, get citizenship as well or does he have to sponsor and apply?

As for the the air strike: were they able to identify each person? Were they able to identify the reporter and his assistant? Were they wearing any jackets that had any indication that they were reporters? Could that air strike have been a result of poor intel? There is no war without casualties and collateral damage. Again, using the airstrike is totally irrelevant as there is no connection whatsoever. It's like comparing chalk and cheese.
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Old 10-15-2012, 03:23 PM
 
Location: Jacurutu
5,302 posts, read 4,015,365 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by All American NYC View Post
Obviously they were unless it was another weapon.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oldglory View Post
As long as there is a perceived threat to one's life that is all the justification one needs to relatiate. Rock throwing is more that a perceived threat, however.
Question for you both. If Border Patrol agents react correctly, and fully identify the threat that has engaged them before they fire, why was Agent Nicolas Ivie shot and killed? It was a case of "friendly fire", where only Border Patrol officers were shooting at each other.
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Old 10-15-2012, 03:38 PM
 
31,688 posts, read 14,614,583 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IBMMuseum View Post
Question for you both. If Border Patrol agents react correctly, and fully identify the threat that has engaged them before they fire, why was Agent Nicolas Ivie shot and killed? It was a case of "friendly fire", where only Border Patrol officers were shooting at each other.
To my knowledge it hasn't been determined for sure yet that Ivie died due to "friendly fire". If so, mistakes are made. Why don't you wait until all the details come out about how this occured rather than asking those of us in the forum who aren't any more privy to the truth than you are? We don't live in a perfect society so no use whining about it or beating it to death. If it was friendly fire I am sure the agents responsible will be dealt with.

At any rate are trying to use this case as an example of Border Patrol agents supposedly making mistakes and shooting Mexican nationals or that there was no rock throwing involved? There were numerous cases of it. Were they all mistakes?

Here's an article written about the story.

http://beforeitsnews.com/opinion-con...e-2495146.html

Last edited by Oldglory; 10-15-2012 at 04:37 PM.. Reason: spelling
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Old 10-15-2012, 04:27 PM
 
Location: Jacurutu
5,302 posts, read 4,015,365 times
Reputation: 601
Quote:
Originally Posted by softblueyz View Post
I'm aware of that.

What I am not aware of, and maybe your can answer this: If they die while serving do their immediate family, who may be illegal (excluding parents), get the same benefits as a family of a US citizen? If they complete their service does the immediate family, who may be illegal, get citizenship as well or does he have to sponsor and apply?...
I'm glad you asked. Do you know what action on immigration President Obama did first, very soon after taking office? He put a review process in place for "conditional residents" (those with a two-year Resident Card, meaning a legal immigrant married to a U.S. citizen less than two years) and K-3/K-4 visa types, when the U.S. citizen spouse sponsor died before his/her relatives were able to gain legal residency (a ten-year Resident Card). Before, the immigrants (although they had been married or were a stepchild of a U.S. citizen) became "removable" from the United States when their sponsor died if they did not have the ten-year card.

There has been at least one case, where the illegal alien spouse of a servicemember that died in the line of duty was provided legal residency. Otherwise it is somewhat of a challenge, because the U.S. citizen has to file the I-601 waiver themselves, based on their hardships. It is determined on a case-by-case basis, and would only lead to residency, not immediate citizenship.

All of the qualifying relatives of a U.S. servicemember have to be sponsored for Immigrant Visas, just like other applicants, although if there is an impending deployment the case(s) can be escalated. There are not any different waivers for servicemembers with illegal alien relatives, other than what a regular U.S. citizen has access to. There are some fast-tracked naturalization processes for the family of a servicemember going on an "accompanied tour", but it is best to spell out exactly what you mean if there is a situation you know of.

Quote:
Originally Posted by softblueyz View Post
...As for the the air strike: were they able to identify each person? Were they able to identify the reporter and his assistant? Were they wearing any jackets that had any indication that they were reporters? Could that air strike have been a result of poor intel? There is no war without casualties and collateral damage. Again, using the airstrike is totally irrelevant as there is no connection whatsoever. It's like comparing chalk and cheese.
But it is very relevant (when applied to the incidents we are covering in this topic) in that:

"Bad intel" does not excuse how quickly the situation deteriorated into a "group-think" mentality...

The gunship wrongly engaged a vehicle, with children inside, that was doing nothing more than trying to render aid...

When there was going to be backlash to the incident, the U.S. released pictures showing weapons close to the bodies of the journalists, but kept the video hidden - in short, they lied to reconstruct what had happened...

Discharging a weapon should be the method of last resort by the Border Patrol for these instances, they can clearly move back and reevaluate the situation when rocks are being thrown. There have been other occurrences (one was in El Paso some months after the Ramos and Compean incident) where an Agent discharged their weapon in response to rock throwing, without it resulting in a death. Violence on the border needs to be brought down, and there are better ways to improve the situation than what has been tried.
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