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Old 10-23-2012, 11:22 AM
 
Location: Portland, OR
9,594 posts, read 9,427,321 times
Reputation: 9198

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Quote:
Originally Posted by OICU812 View Post
People need to fix their own countries, instead of throwing in the towel and coming here. If Pakistan had hundreds of thousands of people like Malala Yousufzai, the taliban would be run out of town, and the people could take back their country.
Really? How practical was it to take back Egypt? Even with Superpower assistance it still isn't a fait accompli. You might not like the Taliban and their values definitely run counter to the prevailing attitudes of the West but has it occurred to you that there might be support for their kind of regime? Considerable support? Leave the Middle East and Asia alone. What are we going to do about the 1% and their plunder of this countries wealth?

H
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Old 10-23-2012, 11:35 AM
 
Location: Portland, OR
9,594 posts, read 9,427,321 times
Reputation: 9198
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oldglory View Post
We aren't fleeing to our other countries illegally. We are choosing to stay and fight.
You don't choose to stay, you stay because you don't know where you might go or what you might do when you got there. Fair enough, but please, don't tell me about "fight". There is no fight in the armies of disgruntled right wing Conservatives that 'stay' here because... just because. There is no fixing this by force. I'm not even sure it was possible by coercion OWS style, but I applaud the attempt. There are indeed Americans fleeing to other countries, legally and illegally. There will be more . So, speak for yourself. The Central Americans know they cannot change their country and America is right there, fat with opportunity... for Central Americans... so they come. I don't know anywhere that is looking for refugee Americans, do you? Leaving America wouldn't be something I would do lightly but I have been thinking that having at least an exit strategy might not be a daft thing. Word to the wise...

H
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Old 10-23-2012, 11:41 AM
 
31,488 posts, read 14,573,470 times
Reputation: 8354
Quote:
Originally Posted by Leisesturm View Post
You don't choose to stay, you stay because you don't know where you might go or what you might do when you got there. Fair enough, but please, don't tell me about "fight". There is no fight in the armies of disgruntled right wing Conservatives that 'stay' here because... just because. There is no fixing this by force. I'm not even sure it was possible by coercion OWS style, but I applaud the attempt. There are indeed Americans fleeing to other countries, legally and illegally. There will be more . So, speak for yourself. The Central Americans know they cannot change their country and America is right there, fat with opportunity... for Central Americans... so they come. I don't know anywhere that is looking for refugee Americans, do you? Leaving America wouldn't be something I would do lightly but I have been thinking that having at least an exit strategy might not be a daft thing. Word to the wise...

H
Wrong! Don't try to read mine or other's minds in here. I have thought of moving to Canada and I could but would rather remain here and fight for my country and my grandkid's futures. Most Americans aren't leaving this country in droves legally or illegally like Mexicans are leaving Mexico for example. No comparison.

Why can't Latin Americans change their countries? That is just a cowards copout to say that it is impossible.
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Old 10-23-2012, 01:07 PM
 
Location: California
2,477 posts, read 1,712,131 times
Reputation: 299
Quote:
Originally Posted by Redshadowz View Post
Well, what about hospitals having to guarantee healthcare to everyone who shows up? What about birthright citizenship through the 14th amendment for their offspring? What about the costs of public education? What about things like affirmative-action and anti-discrimination laws, when tend to give preferences to certain groups of people?

Who decides who gets let in? The federal government or the states? Should states be allowed to bring in immigrants without the permission of the federal government, as long as the immigrants stay within the borders of that state only, and won't be granted citizenship?

Will there be any effect on crime rates? What about shift on voting patterns which could affect the role of government, once there is a huge number of immigrants with different histories and values than the typical American?

Are there any policy mechanisms that we would need to have to avoid any harmful affects coming from immigration?
Lets see if we can answer your questions: Hospitals don't provide free health care to anybody, what they are required to provide is emergency medical treatment. After that they can discharge the person or send them elsewhere.

Birthright Citizenship is only for those whose parents are already citizens or LPR/GC holders. A person born on US soil is only assumed to be a citizen as states can not make the determination if they are or not, only the Feds can through DoS. A birth certificate is nothing more than a document showing the identity of the child born and to whom the parents are. It does not have any status of the parent or the child whatsoever.

Public education is paid for through mostly property tax, maybe it should be changed to have the parent pay tuition for the child to cover the costs.

Get rid of AA and discrimination laws all together, doesn't a person have the right to associate with whom they choose?

The Feds decide who gets let in as the states are not individual countries. No, states should not be allowed to bring in foreigners.

Crime rates are based on numerous things, most of which are numbers and percentages which don't really tell much of anything.

Voting over time would change as most immigrants bring with them their ideology, this wouldn't be good for citizens of which have lived here for a generation or more.

We already have policy mechanisms...only citizens can vote, only qualified immigrants can come, why should this be changed?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Redshadowz View Post
Look, this post has two purposes. One, it was to show the irony of Hispanics when it comes to the kinds of redistribution policies they tend to support that actually make it impossible to have more open immigration.

The second purpose of this post, was really a way for me to express an extension of a basic principle I have when it comes to the world.


I have mentioned this in other threads, but I have this obsession with freedom. Or more importantly, that there should be few if any limitations to my ability to go anywhere in this country, any time I want to. And that freedom should exist for everyone.

This view is based around both freedom of movement/travel, and also that I should be relatively secure in my person, anywhere I go.


So the objective for me, is to have the freedom to go practically anywhere I want to, in the entire world, at any time, without any major burden, and also feeling secure. So the question is, how do you achieve such an objective?

Keep in mind, this isn't only about immigration to the United States. My sister talks about wanting to move to the Mediterranean. Maybe move to the south of France, near Marseille. Maybe I would like to move to one of the Greek Islands. Or lets even pretend I was very religious, and wanted to move to Israel or some other country in the region. Or lets even pretend that I wanted to move to Ireland, because I have Irish roots. Or to Germany, because I love their beer.... Well for the vast majority of people even in America, it would simply be impossible to move to another country. And even if you yourself could move to another country, you most likely couldn't take your family or friends with you.

So the question is, what kinds of government policies would be necessary to allow basically unlimited immigration to the United States, which could be replicated all over the world, to allow for unlimited immigration to anywhere. So if you wanted to move anywhere in the world, you could basically get up and move there. And which would also not increase crime or hatred, and would increase the overall quality of life of people.


Is it possible? And how could it be done?

What if this country and all countries had the same structure of government the United States had during most of the 1800's. Would that kind of government allow for open borders? Why or why not?
There already is the freedom to move throughout the US if you are here as a citizen, immigrant, or visitor. There are no restrictions for this. This freedom exists for everybody, legal or illegal, citizen or not, if they are within the boundaries of the US. Do you not have freedom of movement/travel within the US? Are you not relatively secure in your person, anywhere you go in the US?

Your objective to do this worldwide will never work, it will never be reached or achieved, each country has its own government and type of society, they are all individual nations for which permission is required for entry/visiting/living/etc.

You can apply to move to wherever you wish in the world, but there is no guarantee you will be allowed to by the nation you wish to move to. The only guarantee you have is the ability to leave your own home nation, but there never will be a guarantee to enter any nation you choose.

There are no policies that can/should allow open migration to any nation, a nations first order of business is to take care of its own citizens.

Even if all the countries in the world had the same policies as the US had in the 1800's there would have been restricted immigration. This question simply shows you have very little knowledge of the immigration laws of the 1800's. Modern immigration laws (worldwide) go back to at least the 1400's.

Last edited by Liquid Reigns; 10-23-2012 at 01:36 PM..
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Old 10-23-2012, 03:07 PM
 
14,298 posts, read 7,728,232 times
Reputation: 4243
Quote:
Originally Posted by Leisesturm View Post
Really? How practical was it to take back Egypt? Even with Superpower assistance it still isn't a fait accompli. You might not like the Taliban and their values definitely run counter to the prevailing attitudes of the West but has it occurred to you that there might be support for their kind of regime? Considerable support? Leave the Middle East and Asia alone. What are we going to do about the 1% and their plunder of this countries wealth?

H
You missed my point, unless you thought it was to allow you to grandstand on your soap box
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Old 10-23-2012, 04:53 PM
 
8,195 posts, read 10,212,024 times
Reputation: 7485
I have an idea,which may seem silly.
Here it goes.....

The mountain states of Idaho,Montana,and Nebraska(to name a few) have low population ,with large land mass. I'm sure immigrants could immigrate there and develop the land into farms.

But no,immigrants seem to want to go to already crowded cities,and I'm not sure why.
So,while the Usa does have the land mass,the immigrants are going to the wrong places.
Hispanics especially like to cluster in cites,instead of branching out.
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Old 10-23-2012, 05:00 PM
 
8,195 posts, read 10,212,024 times
Reputation: 7485
I always read that a terrorist could slip through the Mexican border,but how is that possible if Mexico doesn't allow illegal immigration?
Wouldn't Mexican officers stop immigrants from say,Saudi Arabia from coming through the ports?
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Old 10-23-2012, 05:12 PM
 
Location: California
2,477 posts, read 1,712,131 times
Reputation: 299
Quote:
Originally Posted by jerseygal4u View Post
I have an idea,which may seem silly.
Here it goes.....

The mountain states of Idaho,Montana,and Nebraska(to name a few) have low population ,with large land mass. I'm sure immigrants could immigrate there and develop the land into farms.

But no,immigrants seem to want to go to already crowded cities,and I'm not sure why.
So,while the Usa does have the land mass,the immigrants are going to the wrong places.
Hispanics especially like to cluster in cites,instead of branching out.
What about the holding capacity of the land? Farming isn't as easy as it sounds in those states you point to, its mostly livestock.

Add in the additional local costs for utilities, police, fire, schools, etc. Will these new "farms" pay enough in additional taxes to cover the expenses created?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jerseygal4u View Post
I always read that a terrorist could slip through the Mexican border,but how is that possible if Mexico doesn't allow illegal immigration?
Wouldn't Mexican officers stop immigrants from say,Saudi Arabia from coming through the ports?
A lot of immigrants that can't get directly into the US immigrate to Canada or Mexico where they then can cross the border illegally. If they immigrate legally into Mexico why would they be stopped at any Mexican ports? They only need a temp visa to enter Mexico, Mexico isn't as strict as the US is on immigrating from other nations.
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Old 10-23-2012, 06:00 PM
 
Location: Reno, NV
42 posts, read 79,100 times
Reputation: 54
You guys are funny! All that land you're talking about, is already owned by someone now. The wild west was over a long time ago.
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Old 10-23-2012, 06:48 PM
 
31,488 posts, read 14,573,470 times
Reputation: 8354
Quote:
Originally Posted by jerseygal4u View Post
I have an idea,which may seem silly.
Here it goes.....

The mountain states of Idaho,Montana,and Nebraska(to name a few) have low population ,with large land mass. I'm sure immigrants could immigrate there and develop the land into farms.

But no,immigrants seem to want to go to already crowded cities,and I'm not sure why.
So,while the Usa does have the land mass,the immigrants are going to the wrong places.
Hispanics especially like to cluster in cites,instead of branching out.
There is a reason that we don't populate ever inch of this country. I suggest you learn what the carrying capacity of a nation is which includes vegetation, wildlife, natural resources, etc.

Immigrants migrate to the larger cities because that is where the jobs are.
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