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Old 10-29-2012, 01:17 AM
 
Location: Jacurutu
5,302 posts, read 4,019,998 times
Reputation: 601

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oldglory View Post
As I am constantly amazed that no matter the circumstances any law enforcement agency or personnel that tries to repel illegal immigrants in any way shape or form (even where suspected drug smuggling is involved) is viewed as being evil by some in here.

I refer back to LR's post #2. "The tires were shot out, the driver lost control and 2 occupants died. DPS policy's general manual, which says troopers are allowed to use such force when defending themselves or someone else from serious harm or death. Shooting at vehicles is justified to disable a vehicle or when deadly force is deemed necessary. The tires were shot out and 2 of the 8 occupants were hit. Kinda hard to know they were under a tarp in the bed of the truck."
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oldglory View Post
I disagree. The trooper was just trying to shoot out the tires to stop the truck. Drug smuggling was suspected and he had no way of knowing there were people hiding under the tarp and he wasn't aiming at the tarp. These people paid with their lives because they put themselves in harms way.
You've wrongly portrayed my position as well. I've defined many of these incidents to be in the "fog of war". The Agents/Troopers experience a situation that they mistake for something it is not, and respond in an inappropriate manner.

This particular incident is thinking from a single tool perspective. A helicopter with a sniper has one outcome when it is used. Whether or not the vehicle was thought to have a drug load is immaterial, the single tool response has come out and will fire on the vehicle to disable it.

The "fog of war" is when the soldier feels everything they see is the action of a unified, unseen, enemy. It is reactive, and the soldier's response starts to become retributive in nature. Here are some examples of what I am referring to:

Carlos La Madrid, the U.S. citizen carrying the drugs from the border fence, flees at the sight of agents, and attempts to climb the border wall to get away. His partners in the crime throw rocks from the fence to cover him, but they (the true danger to the agents) are not engaged, Carlos La Madrid is the one shot in the back. Selecting him as a target only make sense in a retributive way (he won't be able to do the act again).

Jose Antonio Elena Rodriguez may not have been involved in throwing rocks from Nogales, Mexico, and wouldn't have been a direct threat to an agent putting the muzzle of their weapon through the fence. He was shot seven or eight times (it is accounted as seven in his body and head, one in his arm), and it is believed it was an entire 14-round M-4 magazine was expended at him. The amount of rounds fired and striking their target suggest more of a retributive action (a warning for anyone around not to throw rocks).

In his case, there are border surveillance cameras that could confirm his actions before he was shot, but the video has not been released...

And also video showing more than a dozen Border Patrol Agents surrounding Anastacio Hernandez Rojas when he is beaten and tasered, crying out for help, in an incident strongly reminiscent of Rodney King: Anastacio Hernandez Rojas: Video 'reveals moment 12 border guards tasered and beat to death Mexican illegal immigrant' | Mail Online

Despite these incidents raising questions every time, no officers have been charged, border surveillance video is never released that would confirm their account is as they say it, each story just falls off the news...

That is my true position, I don't envy the Border Patrol and other law enforcement for the hard job they do, but all of these incidents need to be seen as what they are, the "fog of war"...

 
Old 10-29-2012, 02:07 AM
 
47,314 posts, read 24,718,511 times
Reputation: 14471
SMH at shooting at a car from a helicopter. That's about as stupid as it can get. For what? Because you suspect that they were smuggling drugs? Double stupidity.

This Drug War has got the be the saddest thing we've ever come up with in this country.
 
Old 10-29-2012, 04:47 AM
 
Location: Tampa (by way of Omaha)
13,768 posts, read 18,444,413 times
Reputation: 8949
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oldglory View Post
I disagree. The trooper was just trying to shoot out the tires to stop the truck. Drug smuggling was suspected and he had no way of knowing there were people hiding under the tarp and he wasn't aiming at the tarp. These people paid with their lives because they put themselves in harms way.
You can disagree all you want, the trooper's actions were clearly out of line. Neither the suspected crime nor the circumstances involved justified opening fire on the truck. It was a stupid, reckless action that resulted in two people dying when a more reasonable response probably prevents that.
 
Old 10-29-2012, 07:38 AM
 
31,885 posts, read 14,678,159 times
Reputation: 8496
Quote:
Originally Posted by IBMMuseum View Post
You've wrongly portrayed my position as well. I've defined many of these incidents to be in the "fog of war". The Agents/Troopers experience a situation that they mistake for something it is not, and respond in an inappropriate manner.

This particular incident is thinking from a single tool perspective. A helicopter with a sniper has one outcome when it is used. Whether or not the vehicle was thought to have a drug load is immaterial, the single tool response has come out and will fire on the vehicle to disable it.

The "fog of war" is when the soldier feels everything they see is the action of a unified, unseen, enemy. It is reactive, and the soldier's response starts to become retributive in nature. Here are some examples of what I am referring to:

Carlos La Madrid, the U.S. citizen carrying the drugs from the border fence, flees at the sight of agents, and attempts to climb the border wall to get away. His partners in the crime throw rocks from the fence to cover him, but they (the true danger to the agents) are not engaged, Carlos La Madrid is the one shot in the back. Selecting him as a target only make sense in a retributive way (he won't be able to do the act again).

Jose Antonio Elena Rodriguez may not have been involved in throwing rocks from Nogales, Mexico, and wouldn't have been a direct threat to an agent putting the muzzle of their weapon through the fence. He was shot seven or eight times (it is accounted as seven in his body and head, one in his arm), and it is believed it was an entire 14-round M-4 magazine was expended at him. The amount of rounds fired and striking their target suggest more of a retributive action (a warning for anyone around not to throw rocks).

In his case, there are border surveillance cameras that could confirm his actions before he was shot, but the video has not been released...

And also video showing more than a dozen Border Patrol Agents surrounding Anastacio Hernandez Rojas when he is beaten and tasered, crying out for help, in an incident strongly reminiscent of Rodney King: Anastacio Hernandez Rojas: Video 'reveals moment 12 border guards tasered and beat to death Mexican illegal immigrant' | Mail Online

Despite these incidents raising questions every time, no officers have been charged, border surveillance video is never released that would confirm their account is as they say it, each story just falls off the news...

That is my true position, I don't envy the Border Patrol and other law enforcement for the hard job they do, but all of these incidents need to be seen as what they are, the "fog of war"...
That's why I leave it up to their superiors to determine whether any of these agents have acted inappropiately or not. You seem to be passing judgement on them in spite of the fact that to my knowledge only in the Campeon/ Ramos case were the agents convicted of anything. I note a pattern here that never are the agent's actions defended only the perpetrator's including claims of discrimination at border checks. When facts are presented by investigators and convictions are made that is what will get my attention not amateur and perhaps biased opinions.
 
Old 10-29-2012, 07:40 AM
 
31,885 posts, read 14,678,159 times
Reputation: 8496
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bosco55David View Post
You can disagree all you want, the trooper's actions were clearly out of line. Neither the suspected crime nor the circumstances involved justified opening fire on the truck. It was a stupid, reckless action that resulted in two people dying when a more reasonable response probably prevents that.
When the trooper's actions become a conviction of wrongdoing get back with me.
 
Old 10-29-2012, 10:31 AM
 
Location: Maryland
15,179 posts, read 15,834,008 times
Reputation: 3028
Quote:
Originally Posted by IBMMuseum View Post
This one clearly is an "expert" on police chases:



But I understand it is more appealing to regard a blog as providing "expert" information:
Whether he's an "expert" or not, the fact remains, the police were well within their rights to demand the driver stop the vehicle. Once the driver chose to ignore their demands, he gave them probable cause to suspect illegal activity, and respond accordingly. His refusal to comply with their orders jeopardized their lives. He can blame himself for their deaths.

You are not privy to all of the details of this incident to even attempt to condemn the troopers. Plus, innocent people generally don't flee from police. Why not wait until an investigation has been completed, rather than assuming their actions were wrong? Or, is the fact that they shot at a group of fleeing Mexicans enough reason for them to be vilified?

Bottom line: They are here illegally, chose to flee from police, and suffered the consequences. Had they not entered this country without authorization, this incident would not have occurred. Hopefully others will learn from this.
 
Old 10-29-2012, 10:40 AM
 
Location: Maryland
15,179 posts, read 15,834,008 times
Reputation: 3028
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oldglory View Post
When the trooper's actions become a conviction of wrongdoing get back with me.
Isn't it amazing that law enforcement is always wrong when dealing with illegals? But, somehow illegal aliens are never at fault. Even when they commit heinous crimes their supporters are there in full force defending their behavior.
 
Old 10-29-2012, 10:50 AM
 
31,885 posts, read 14,678,159 times
Reputation: 8496
Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
Whether he's an "expert" or not, the fact remains, the police were well within their rights to demand the driver stop the vehicle. Once the driver chose to ignore their demands, he gave them probable cause to suspect illegal activity, and respond accordingly. His refusal to comply with their orders jeopardized their lives. He can blame himself for their deaths.

You are not privy to all of the details of this incident to even attempt to condemn the troopers. Plus, innocent people generally don't flee from police. Why not wait until an investigation has been completed, rather than assuming their actions were wrong? Or, is the fact that they shot at a group of fleeing Mexicans enough reason for them to be vilified?

Bottom line: They are here illegally, chose to flee from police, and suffered the consequences. Had they not entered this country without authorization, this incident would not have occurred. Hopefully others will learn from this.
You nailed it here.
 
Old 10-29-2012, 10:51 AM
 
Location: Tampa (by way of Omaha)
13,768 posts, read 18,444,413 times
Reputation: 8949
Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
His refusal to comply with their orders jeopardized their lives. He can blame himself for their deaths.
Did you seriously just type that? I've got news for you...a fleeing pickup truck is not jeopardizing the lives of anyone in a helicopter hovering a hundred feet or so in the air. Either you didn't read the story or you're out of your mind.

Quote:
You are not privy to all of the details of this incident to even attempt to condemn the troopers.
What more details do you need? We know the truck was in a desolate, unpopulated desert. We know they had done nothing to directly endanger the lives of civilians or law enforcement. We know the trooper fired on the truck from a helicopter. What facts could possibly come out that would change the way we look at this?

Quote:
Bottom line: They are here illegally, chose to flee from police, and suffered the consequences. Had they not entered this country without authorization, this incident would not have occurred. Hopefully others will learn from this.
I hate to break it to you, but that wouldn't fly under even the most liberal interpretation of proximate cause.
 
Old 10-29-2012, 11:39 AM
 
Location: Maryland
15,179 posts, read 15,834,008 times
Reputation: 3028
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bosco55David View Post
Did you seriously just type that? I've got news for you...a fleeing pickup truck is not jeopardizing the lives of anyone in a helicopter hovering a hundred feet or so in the air. Either you didn't read the story or you're out of your mind.

What more details do you need? We know the truck was in a desolate, unpopulated desert. We know they had done nothing to directly endanger the lives of civilians or law enforcement. We know the trooper fired on the truck from a helicopter. What facts could possibly come out that would change the way we look at this?



I hate to break it to you, but that wouldn't fly under even the most liberal interpretation of proximate cause.
And, how do "we know" anything, other than what was reported in an online article? Or, do you actually believe police release all details for public consumption?

If I were you, I would refrain from implying anyone is "out of their mind." Debate the issue.
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