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Old 10-13-2007, 08:54 AM
 
3,712 posts, read 5,709,656 times
Reputation: 1285

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Miker2069 View Post
I would (for once) love to see those who are so concerned about the "illegal immigration" issue (which is really "illegal aliens" issue as the former is an oxymoron), deal with the root of the issue (the transport, encouragement, and overall politics/system that supports it) vs. ancillary topics which involves the illegals themselves.

It's very easy to direct your anger and frustration towards the illegals however that energy is misguided and wasted as your not dealing with the root, it's simply whacking at the leaves. Let's see if we can have a good discussion on the lobbyists who spend millions on petitioning congress to support undocumented workers, how about a discussion on the businesses that actively recruit (i.e., as signs and postings in Latin America that offer good jobs in America), those that have a huge transportation business courier illegals across the border, and many other cogs in the entire big business of cheap labor.
Sorry. I'm not buying your argument. I am not willing to say the illegals have no culpability in our current crisis. They are very well aware that they are violating US immigration law when they illegally cross our borders or overstay visas. Should bank robbers not be held responsible for their crimes because the bank should have hired more security guards? Or had a better vault? If someone cheats on their income tax should we blame the IRS? Why should the illegals not be held responsible for their actions? Are they not equipped to judge right from wrong?
And don't forget that if you whack all the leaves off a tree, it will die.

Quote:
Are you prepared to quit your job if you find out they actively use illegals, are you prepared to divest your investments from companys that use illegals? Will you give up that nice new house since that vast majority of the builders use some percentage of "undocumented workers"? Or are you simply comfortable taking out your venom on the illegal who for the most part has been "recruited" to come here and not willing to see your convictions through?

Griping is easy, rolling up your sleeves and doing something constructive about it is a far greater sign of character. It's far easier to whack at the leaves than to deal with the hard task of identifying and eliminating the root of the problem- the truth is, the root of the problem is the embedded deeply in our economy and our government.
This seems to me to be a rather broad indictment ('griping' is easy, etc.) when you have no clue as to what individual members do outside of this site. I do alot of 'constructive' work on other sites (ALIPAC, NumbersUSA, Save Our State, MCDC) because these sites are set up to actively address the problem. ALIPAC and NumbersUSA in particular are very well organized with reams of information on subject ranging from how to contact your representatives to lists of 'talking points' on the issue at hand so your letter will be more effective. Fax lines are also set up. City-data does not have this, nor is this it's purpose. That is why myself and others periodically suggest these, and other, sites for people who wish to adopt a more activist stance.
Am I prepared to quit my job? Hey, dude. I already did. A long time ago. I will never go back to work because as a matter of principle, I will not provide care to illegal aliens. And if went back to work, I would be forced to do that.
My house is over 50 years old so I can assure you it was not built with illegal labor. If we hire a company to do work, I inform them that we do not allow illegal workers on our property. If they cannot provide American workers, please don't take the job.
Am I prepared to see my convictions through? Let me put it this way, if push comes to shove I am willing to give my life to defend my family and my country. To me, that is a fair trade. My life in return for something that I value more. It doesn't get much more real than that.
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Old 10-13-2007, 09:05 AM
 
1,001 posts, read 2,743,169 times
Reputation: 354
Quote:
Originally Posted by vivski View Post
travelling fella:

i hear what you are saying, and i too agree though hate to admit our own governmant has failed us as americans.
you did not say whether you ever paln on coming to america, or not, legally or illegally, but i would welcome you if you chose the legal way.

i would like to touch on one thing that you said, and it was about americans spending more that they can afford,though.

my response to you is this.... americans....we are our brothers keeper...the referees of the world. we have big shoulders and open pocketbooks. when the cause is warranted....
that is been proved throughout history....first we freed ourselves from a tyrannical government, we fed the hungry in ethiopia, we fought the nazis,we provide aid to many , many countries in need, without questioning why most times.
we have defended many nations over the history of america...too many to count...but two in particular in these days...iraq and afghanistan come to mind...
Actually, if you look up the figures for the amount of foreign aid we give - although we do give the most money in base numbers, we give the lowest percentage of foreign aid among most nations.

I had this same argument with my dad a year or two ago, and had to prove it to him.

US and Foreign Aid Assistance - Global Issues

You can find some official government links that corroborate this as well.
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Old 10-13-2007, 09:13 AM
 
1,001 posts, read 2,743,169 times
Reputation: 354
Quote:
Originally Posted by Miker2069 View Post
I would (for once) love to see those who are so concerned about the "illegal immigration" issue (which is really "illegal aliens" issue as the former is an oxymoron), deal with the root of the issue (the transport, encouragement, and overall politics/system that supports it) vs. ancillary topics which involves the illegals themselves.

It's very easy to direct your anger and frustration towards the illegals however that energy is misguided and wasted as you're not dealing with the root, it's simply whacking at the leaves. Let's see if we can have a good discussion on the lobbyists who spend millions on petitioning congress to support undocumented workers, how about a discussion on the businesses that actively recruit (i.e., as signs and postings in Latin America that offer good jobs in America), those that have a huge transportation business courier illegals across the border, and many other cogs in the entire big business of cheap labor.

Are you prepared to quit your job if you find out they actively use illegals, are you prepared to divest your investments from companys that use illegals? Will you give up that nice new house since that vast majority of the builders use some percentage of "undocumented workers"? Or are you simply comfortable taking out your venom on the illegal who for the most part has been "recruited" to come here and not willing to see your convictions through?

Griping is easy, rolling up your sleeves and doing something constructive about it is a far greater sign of character. It's far easier to whack at the leaves than to deal with the hard task of identifying and eliminating the root of the problem- the truth is, the root of the problem is the embedded deeply in our economy and our government.
This is an excellent post.

I'd add: boycott US companies that are now based in Mexico (in order to exploit the cheaper labor, resources, and taxes).

It's amazing that people can actually take matters into their own hands and promote change by simply looking at their own lifestyles, isn't it?
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Old 10-13-2007, 09:20 AM
 
1,001 posts, read 2,743,169 times
Reputation: 354
Quote:
Originally Posted by andreabeth View Post
Sorry. I'm not buying your argument. I am not willing to say the illegals have no culpability in our current crisis. They are very well aware that they are violating US immigration law when they illegally cross our borders or overstay visas. Should bank robbers not be held responsible for their crimes because the bank should have hired more security guards? Or had a better vault? If someone cheats on their income tax should we blame the IRS? Why should the illegals not be held responsible for their actions? Are they not equipped to judge right from wrong?
And don't forget that if you whack all the leaves off a tree, it will die.
Wow, talk about missing the point.

Anyway, fine. What are you going to do about it? Because obviously whatever has been done isn't working. And there is a compelling argument that whatever will be done won't work either.

You can simply treat the surface problem, or the symptom every time it appears, but if you don't start treating the root of the problem, the disease, you'll find you're wasting your time.

Your rebuttal is to focus on treating the surface problem. What Mike proposes is that we look at treating the root of the problem.


Quote:
Originally Posted by andreabeth View Post
This seems to me to be a rather broad indictment ('griping' is easy, etc.) when you have no clue as to what individual members do outside of this site. I do alot of 'constructive' work on other sites (ALIPAC, NumbersUSA, Save Our State, MCDC) because these sites are set up to actively address the problem. ALIPAC and NumbersUSA in particular are very well organized with reams of information on subject ranging from how to contact your representatives to lists of 'talking points' on the issue at hand so your letter will be more effective. Fax lines are also set up. City-data does not have this, nor is this it's purpose. That is why myself and others periodically suggest these, and other, sites for people who wish to adopt a more activist stance.
Am I prepared to quit my job? Hey, dude. I already did. A long time ago. I will never go back to work because as a matter of principle, I will not provide care to illegal aliens. And if went back to work, I would be forced to do that.
My house is over 50 years old so I can assure you it was not built with illegal labor. If we hire a company to do work, I inform them that we do not allow illegal workers on our property. If they cannot provide American workers, please don't take the job.
Am I prepared to see my convictions through? Let me put it this way, if push comes to shove I am willing to give my life to defend my family and my country. To me, that is a fair trade. My life in return for something that I value more. It doesn't get much more real than that.
Fine. You win a cookie.

But again, you're just evidence of the very thing he is challenging others to do. I don't understand your hostility to his point.
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Old 10-13-2007, 10:28 AM
 
Location: California
3,432 posts, read 2,157,153 times
Reputation: 138
Quote:
Originally Posted by vivski View Post
as someone who attended the big blue bus for five years of my elementary school...in my days really known as the speech bus, and having two children who attended speech classes five of their school age years, i would never dream of making fun of someones handicap, and though, i detest illegal immigration, i do admire anyone who is willing to learn, even if they do not pronounce the words "just right"...
i love the fact they try.
I'm not making fun of them? Thats not really a handicap. Everyone can learn, Spanish was my first language. After I learned English in Kindergarten in about 3 months
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Old 10-13-2007, 10:49 AM
 
Location: Charlotte,NC, US, North America, Earth, Alpha Quadrant,Milky Way Galaxy
3,769 posts, read 6,614,770 times
Reputation: 2108
Quote:
Originally Posted by andreabeth View Post
Sorry. I'm not buying your argument. I am not willing to say the illegals have no culpability in our current crisis. They are very well aware that they are violating US immigration law when they illegally cross our borders or overstay visas. Should bank robbers not be held responsible for their crimes because the bank should have hired more security guards? Or had a better vault? If someone cheats on their income tax should we blame the IRS? Why should the illegals not be held responsible for their actions? Are they not equipped to judge right from wrong?
And don't forget that if you whack all the leaves off a tree, it will die.



This seems to me to be a rather broad indictment ('griping' is easy, etc.) when you have no clue as to what individual members do outside of this site. I do alot of 'constructive' work on other sites (ALIPAC, NumbersUSA, Save Our State, MCDC) because these sites are set up to actively address the problem. ALIPAC and NumbersUSA in particular are very well organized with reams of information on subject ranging from how to contact your representatives to lists of 'talking points' on the issue at hand so your letter will be more effective. Fax lines are also set up. City-data does not have this, nor is this it's purpose. That is why myself and others periodically suggest these, and other, sites for people who wish to adopt a more activist stance.
Am I prepared to quit my job? Hey, dude. I already did. A long time ago. I will never go back to work because as a matter of principle, I will not provide care to illegal aliens. And if went back to work, I would be forced to do that.
My house is over 50 years old so I can assure you it was not built with illegal labor. If we hire a company to do work, I inform them that we do not allow illegal workers on our property. If they cannot provide American workers, please don't take the job.
Am I prepared to see my convictions through? Let me put it this way, if push comes to shove I am willing to give my life to defend my family and my country. To me, that is a fair trade. My life in return for something that I value more. It doesn't get much more real than that.

I figured someone would read what I wrote as an excuse to swing the borders wide open. Like I said, you can continue to whack at the leaves, while the root of the problem, the system that feeds it and nurtures goes right along...

Maybe an example would help. Bank of America is *actively* marketing to individuals who don't have a SSN or other forms of "documented identifcation". They are boldy marketing to the hispanic market in this demographic. Wink wink, nod nod. Undocumented workers need credit cards too? A place to hold their money? Western Union does the same.

Okay another example- The North Carolina farmers association actively lobbys congress for more relaxed restrictions when it comes to undocumented workers.

In Mexico close to the border there are signs "come work in North Carolina, Tenneesse, etc." Building, contruction, etc. There are entire business models built around this. I could yell at the illegal (and there's no doubt he/she is breaking US laws), *but* my government looks the other way, why? The influence of highly paid lobbyists, who are supported by big business. As the old saying goes, "follow the money."

Look, I could gripe about it, or I could actively seek to get to the root of the powers that be to try and resolve it. I firmly believe our government is very content with us bickering about it and not doing a darn thing.
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Old 10-13-2007, 11:30 AM
 
3,712 posts, read 5,709,656 times
Reputation: 1285
Quote:
Originally Posted by Miker2069 View Post
I figured someone would read what I wrote as an excuse to swing the borders wide open. Like I said, you can continue to whack at the leaves, while the root of the problem, the system that feeds it and nurtures goes right along...

Maybe an example would help. Bank of America is *actively* marketing to individuals who don't have a SSN or other forms of "documented identifcation". They are boldy marketing to the hispanic market in this demographic. Wink wink, nod nod. Undocumented workers need credit cards too? A place to hold their money? Western Union does the same.

Okay another example- The North Carolina farmers association actively lobbys congress for more relaxed restrictions when it comes to undocumented workers.

In Mexico close to the border there are signs "come work in North Carolina, Tenneesse, etc." Building, contruction, etc. There are entire business models built around this. I could yell at the illegal (and there's no doubt he/she is breaking US laws), *but* my government looks the other way, why? The influence of highly paid lobbyists, who are supported by big business. As the old saying goes, "follow the money."

Look, I could gripe about it, or I could actively seek to get to the root of the powers that be to try and resolve it. I firmly believe our government is very content with us bickering about it and not doing a darn thing.
We are doing a darn thing. The Scamnesty bill was stopped in late June by nothing more than grassroots opposition. We were outgunned and outspent big time and we stopped it. On the morning of the final vote the Capitol's phone bank crashed under the volume of calls. To imply people are doing nothing is just plain wrong. I consider writing and calling my representatives, participating in community forums to adress the problem and doing my part to boycott Mexican products and not hire illegals an attempt to adress the root of the problem. Many others are doing likewise.
Here you go, a petition to boycott the Bank of (Latin) America:
Boycott Bank of America. Bank of America Boycott.
Want to help stop amnesty for agricultural workers and the DREAM Act? Go here:Illegal Immigration - Americans for Legal Immigration PAC
or here:NumbersUSA (http://www.numbersusa.com/index - broken link)

If I wish to accomplish something such as stop citizenship for illegal agricultural workers, to me it only makes sense to work with like-minded individuals.
If you are unhappy with the topics that are discussed, I suppose you could always jump in and start a thread of you own.

Last edited by andreabeth; 10-13-2007 at 11:40 AM..
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Old 10-13-2007, 03:17 PM
 
1,266 posts, read 2,223,114 times
Reputation: 436
[quote=andreabeth;1722570]Sorry. I'm not buying your argument. I am not willing to say the illegals have no culpability in our current crisis. They are very well aware that they are violating US immigration law when they illegally cross our borders or overstay visas. Should bank robbers not be held responsible for their crimes because the bank should have hired more security guards? Or had a better vault? If someone cheats on their income tax should we blame the IRS? Why should the illegals not be held responsible for their actions? Are they not equipped to judge right from wrong?
And don't forget that if you whack all the leaves off a tree, it will die.

I agree with you 100%. Sometimes it's actually like talking to a tree. Or beating a dead horse for that matter
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Old 10-14-2007, 08:25 AM
 
Location: Charlotte,NC, US, North America, Earth, Alpha Quadrant,Milky Way Galaxy
3,769 posts, read 6,614,770 times
Reputation: 2108
Quote:
Originally Posted by andreabeth View Post
We are doing a darn thing. The Scamnesty bill was stopped in late June by nothing more than grassroots opposition. We were outgunned and outspent big time and we stopped it. On the morning of the final vote the Capitol's phone bank crashed under the volume of calls. To imply people are doing nothing is just plain wrong. I consider writing and calling my representatives, participating in community forums to adress the problem and doing my part to boycott Mexican products and not hire illegals an attempt to adress the root of the problem. Many others are doing likewise.
Here you go, a petition to boycott the Bank of (Latin) America:
Boycott Bank of America. Bank of America Boycott.
Want to help stop amnesty for agricultural workers and the DREAM Act? Go here:Illegal Immigration - Americans for Legal Immigration PAC
or here:NumbersUSA (http://www.numbersusa.com/index - broken link)

If I wish to accomplish something such as stop citizenship for illegal agricultural workers, to me it only makes sense to work with like-minded individuals.
If you are unhappy with the topics that are discussed, I suppose you could always jump in and start a thread of you own.
Those are good links, however you read way to much into what I wrote. I never implied what you are insinuating I implied. I simply stated the vast majority of the discussion deals with the illegal alien, how bad they are vs. the system that encourages, transports, and supports them.

You're clearly very passionate which is impressive and commendable.
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Old 10-14-2007, 04:51 PM
 
Location: new mexico
447 posts, read 705,921 times
Reputation: 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anchorless View Post
Actually, if you look up the figures for the amount of foreign aid we give - although we do give the most money in base numbers, we give the lowest percentage of foreign aid among most nations.

I had this same argument with my dad a year or two ago, and had to prove it to him.

US and Foreign Aid Assistance - Global Issues

You can find some official government links that corroborate this as well.


if you read my response to travelling fella , you can see the point i was trying to make, is that america is a giving and compassionate nation, giving to many...and never about the amount we have given over any other nations...


maybe other nations give more in monetary aid... but as a nation, we have given much sacrifice...and always will because that is our nature...
this isnt about who gave more, it's about why we gave.
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