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Old 11-19-2012, 05:04 PM
 
Location: Oak Park, IL
408 posts, read 375,102 times
Reputation: 319

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Quote:
Originally Posted by godofthunder9010 View Post
Most of the illegals are already here and can't complain about being underpaid. Who do they complain to? They're here illegally and don't want to draw attention. Predatory employers will continue actively seeking out and hiring illegals.

Our xenophobic system is perpetuating these problems.
Since Reagan summoned millions over with his amnesty, Republicans have had no problem with this. At least Obama has deported more and path to citizenship, as much as I hate the idea, will stop their exploitation by the American business community and American public -- some on this forum even partook during better times I'd wager. But that's only if the border is truly sealed. How do you seal it? Not a fence, but serious punishment for those who use illegal labor, including employers and even homeowners who use them. Bet that'd make you check who's mowing your lawn or doing your roof, right?
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Old 11-19-2012, 05:17 PM
 
36,220 posts, read 16,188,328 times
Reputation: 9735
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wicket View Post
Since Reagan summoned millions over with his amnesty, Republicans have had no problem with this. At least Obama has deported more and path to citizenship, as much as I hate the idea, will stop their exploitation by the American business community and American public -- some on this forum even partook during better times I'd wager. But that's only if the border is truly sealed. How do you seal it? Not a fence, but serious punishment for those who use illegal labor, including employers and even homeowners who use them. Bet that'd make you check who's mowing your lawn or doing your roof, right?
Reagan didn't summon illegal immigrants over here it was because our borders weren't secured as promised. Both parties were guilty of that. At least the Republicans in congress voted down the last amnesty in spite of Bush pushing it so I would say they did have a problem with it. The Democrats were for it. Obama has only allowed felons to be deported. He has had a hands off approach to the rest. He also stopped the workplace raids.

The solutions are to remove all incentives for them to come here like jobs, benefits and birthright citizenship along with e-verify and monitoring employers to use it.
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Old 11-20-2012, 11:54 AM
 
Location: Chicago Area
8,006 posts, read 4,173,338 times
Reputation: 3016
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oldglory View Post
You do realize we have quotas for good reasons, don't you? Our quotas are based on our needs not a foreigners needs and that is the way it should be. Our obligation is to protect Americans and American jobs and benefits for Americans. There are no actual jobs that we need illegal immigrants for. There is no shortage of American workers. It is only greedy employers desiring cheaper labor that's all. Should we give up our jobs to illegal immigrants so these greedy employers can get richer? What is an American supposed to do to support his/her family?

The word xenophobic has no place in this issue. We have no fear of strangers since we already have milliions of Americans and legal immigrants residing within our borders from all ethnic groups/races and nationalities. What is ironic is that many who make that claim are of the same ethnic group that hold the highest numbers in our legal immigration quotas. Strange, huh?
No, the quota system we have in place is an inflexible, unyielding and outdated concept. We come with a number like 1 million and say that's the maximum number of immigrants for any given year and then write in excuses like "that's how many jobs we have." The problem with that model is that new residents in the USA aren't just taking jobs, they're also creating them. They gotta eat. They need somewhere to live. They need transportation. They need clothes. They need everything that any other human being needs. And transplanting yourself into a culture that has a lot of luxuries like big screen TV's and smart phones, you tend to want those too. The only way immigrants can negatively impact the economy is if they are unemployed.

The system we have in place cyclically recreates this and many related problems.

If everything is kept legal and above board, employers can't cheat and hire the illegals. You must find a way to deny employers their massive and ready supply of workers that they can drastically underpay. The reality is, finding and removing 12 million or more illegal residents that are already here is an impossible task. The reality is, policing rules against hiring illegals would be unbelievably expensive to try to enforce. It'd be wide open to corruption and bribes to overlook certain companies/employers. Both of these would fail and fail miserably.

The cheapest solution is to find a way to grant either citizenship or legal resident status to all the illegals. The only reason they are not demanding a legal wage is their illegal status. The only competitive advantage they have for getting any given job is that employers can screw them over without consequence. Can you think of a simpler solution than making illegals legal? Forget about how you get there or what penalties, fines or debts to society we're talking about. This is the only solution that actually stands some chance of working.

The 800 lbs gorilla in the room: How do you do that without encouraging an even greater influx illegal immigration? Build the biggest wall in human history on the Mexican border and you won't stop it. You have to come up with something that works.

If they can secure a job before they get here and keep that job for a year, those are the folks you let in. That probably means you wouldn't have much immigration in a down economy like we have right now. Somehow you have to make everything contingent upon being a productive member of American society and not just leeching on the system to get free stuff.
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Old 11-20-2012, 12:16 PM
 
36,220 posts, read 16,188,328 times
Reputation: 9735
Quote:
Originally Posted by godofthunder9010 View Post
No, the quota system we have in place is an inflexible, unyielding and outdated concept. We come with a number like 1 million and say that's the maximum number of immigrants for any given year and then write in excuses like "that's how many jobs we have." The problem with that model is that new residents in the USA aren't just taking jobs, they're also creating them. They gotta eat. They need somewhere to live. They need transportation. They need clothes. They need everything that any other human being needs. And transplanting yourself into a culture that has a lot of luxuries like big screen TV's and smart phones, you tend to want those too. The only way immigrants can negatively impact the economy is if they are unemployed.

The system we have in place cyclically recreates this and many related problems.

If everything is kept legal and above board, employers can't cheat and hire the illegals. You must find a way to deny employers their massive and ready supply of workers that they can drastically underpay. The reality is, finding and removing 12 million or more illegal residents that are already here is an impossible task. The reality is, policing rules against hiring illegals would be unbelievably expensive to try to enforce. It'd be wide open to corruption and bribes to overlook certain companies/employers. Both of these would fail and fail miserably.

The cheapest solution is to find a way to grant either citizenship or legal resident status to all the illegals. The only reason they are not demanding a legal wage is their illegal status. The only competitive advantage they have for getting any given job is that employers can screw them over without consequence. Can you think of a simpler solution than making illegals legal? Forget about how you get there or what penalties, fines or debts to society we're talking about. This is the only solution that actually stands some chance of working.

The 800 lbs gorilla in the room: How do you do that without encouraging an even greater influx illegal immigration? Build the biggest wall in human history on the Mexican border and you won't stop it. You have to come up with something that works.

If they can secure a job before they get here and keep that job for a year, those are the folks you let in. That probably means you wouldn't have much immigration in a down economy like we have right now. Somehow you have to make everything contingent upon being a productive member of American society and not just leeching on the system to get free stuff.
It is merely your opinion that our legal immigrants quotas aren't ample. You're not an expert. I will take the expert's words for what our annual quotas should be.

Illegal immigrants are a net burden to our economy in the way of healthcare, education, depleted resources, added crime rates and loss of American jobs. Even those that are working are getting government subsidies to survive and it is we the taxpayer that are footing the bill. Most of those coming here illegally are of the poor, uneducated and unskilled yet you claim these kinds of people create jobs? Even if that were true they only hire people like themselves not Americans.

I am a strong advocate of keeping the employers honest by mandating e-verify. As I said, there is no plan to find 12 million plus illegal immigrants and deport them. What will work is removing the incentives for them to remain here and continue to come here. Those would be jobs, benefits and birthright citizenship. Even if we did outright deport them it would be cheaper than allowing them to remain here. Granting amnesty is not cheaper for the American people in the long run. That was proven after the last amnesty.

We don't need them remaining here legally to continue to hold jobs that Americans need. We have 23 million Americans out of work.

These are the people that "we" let in? Uh, no it was collusion between our government and the greedy employers not regular Americans and I'll be damned if "we" are going to pay for their negligence and greed. Let em be productive citizens in their own countries. We don't have a shortage of producers/workers in this country. In fact we don't need the added population growth either.
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Old 11-20-2012, 12:58 PM
 
Location: Chicago Area
8,006 posts, read 4,173,338 times
Reputation: 3016
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oldglory View Post
It is merely your opinion that our legal immigrants quotas aren't ample. You're not an expert. I will take the expert's words for what our annual quotas should be.

Illegal immigrants are a net burden to our economy in the way of healthcare, education, depleted resources, added crime rates and loss of American jobs. Even those that are working are getting government subsidies to survive and it is we the taxpayer that are footing the bill. Most of those coming here illegally are of the poor, uneducated and unskilled yet you claim these kinds of people create jobs? Even if that were true they only hire people like themselves not Americans.
You buy bread, you contribute to the economy. You pay rent and you contribute to the economy. You buy a used car and you contribute to the economy. You buy gas for that car and you contribute to the economy. You buy clothing, you contribute to the economy.

If working for minimum wage 40 hours a week makes you a net loss in the USA, then there's something seriously wrong with our minimum wage.

Quote:
I am a strong advocate of keeping the employers honest by mandating e-verify. As I said, there is no plan to find 12 million plus illegal immigrants and deport them. What will work is removing the incentives for them to remain here and continue to come here.
Maybe e-verify works. Maybe it doesn't. The problem is that there are people who stand to lose millions of dollars if they have to hire legal workers and start obeying labor laws. Logically, they'll find a way to circumvent anything you put in place.

Home owners and smaller employers would be especially hard to hold to e-verify. For example, if I want somebody to finish my basement, how does the government prevent me from hiring illegals to do the job for me? They'd be cheaper, right? I wouldn't do that mind you, but for argument's sake, how would you stop me? How do you stop small farmers from hiring them? Ultimately, how do you ensure that e-verify isn't simply bypassed?
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Old 11-20-2012, 02:13 PM
 
3,493 posts, read 2,466,717 times
Reputation: 2350
Quote:
Originally Posted by godofthunder9010 View Post
You buy bread, you contribute to the economy. You pay rent and you contribute to the economy. You buy a used car and you contribute to the economy. You buy gas for that car and you contribute to the economy. You buy clothing, you contribute to the economy.

If working for minimum wage 40 hours a week makes you a net loss in the USA, then there's something seriously wrong with our minimum wage.

Maybe e-verify works. Maybe it doesn't. The problem is that there are people who stand to lose millions of dollars if they have to hire legal workers and start obeying labor laws. Logically, they'll find a way to circumvent anything you put in place.

Home owners and smaller employers would be especially hard to hold to e-verify. For example, if I want somebody to finish my basement, how does the government prevent me from hiring illegals to do the job for me? They'd be cheaper, right? I wouldn't do that mind you, but for argument's sake, how would you stop me? How do you stop small farmers from hiring them? Ultimately, how do you ensure that e-verify isn't simply bypassed?
Low skilled Mexicans without even a GED don't contribute much f anything to the American economy. Handing them citizenship won't change that fact. All you do is give them access to the welfare system. Why should we give American citizenship to a foreign national who has not only freely broken multiple American laws but is extremely likely to increase taxes on Americans?



We get nothing from illegals. Legalize them and you'll make that problem even worse. If they are so wonderful and valuable let Mexico welcome them back with open arms. The fact that Mexican officials don't want them anymore than we do is extremely telling.
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Old 11-20-2012, 02:59 PM
 
36,220 posts, read 16,188,328 times
Reputation: 9735
Quote:
Originally Posted by godofthunder9010 View Post
You buy bread, you contribute to the economy. You pay rent and you contribute to the economy. You buy a used car and you contribute to the economy. You buy gas for that car and you contribute to the economy. You buy clothing, you contribute to the economy.

If working for minimum wage 40 hours a week makes you a net loss in the USA, then there's something seriously wrong with our minimum wage.

Maybe e-verify works. Maybe it doesn't. The problem is that there are people who stand to lose millions of dollars if they have to hire legal workers and start obeying labor laws. Logically, they'll find a way to circumvent anything you put in place.

Home owners and smaller employers would be especially hard to hold to e-verify. For example, if I want somebody to finish my basement, how does the government prevent me from hiring illegals to do the job for me? They'd be cheaper, right? I wouldn't do that mind you, but for argument's sake, how would you stop me? How do you stop small farmers from hiring them? Ultimately, how do you ensure that e-verify isn't simply bypassed?
If Americans got back the jobs they lost to illegal immigrants they in turn would be buying bread, gas, clothing, etc. Illegal immigrants also send a lot of their earning back to their homelands that aren't spent in our economy. I don't really care who loses millions by not being able to hire illegal workers. They deserve to go out of business. Instead they would adjust and pay a higher wage to an American. Less people here that we have to subsidize their healthcare, etc. to also.

E-verify is supposed to be around 96% accurate. This would get illegal immigrants off of "most" jobs. Sure there may be somewhat of an underground economy but not near the abuse that there is now without e-verify.
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Old 11-20-2012, 04:43 PM
 
Location: Chicago Area
8,006 posts, read 4,173,338 times
Reputation: 3016
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oldglory View Post
If Americans got back the jobs they lost to illegal immigrants they in turn would be buying bread, gas, clothing, etc. Illegal immigrants also send a lot of their earning back to their homelands that aren't spent in our economy. I don't really care who loses millions by not being able to hire illegal workers. They deserve to go out of business. Instead they would adjust and pay a higher wage to an American. Less people here that we have to subsidize their healthcare, etc. to also.

E-verify is supposed to be around 96% accurate. This would get illegal immigrants off of "most" jobs. Sure there may be somewhat of an underground economy but not near the abuse that there is now without e-verify.
I don't care about the folks who stand to lose millions of dollars either. But if you stand to lose millions, you tend to get very creative in circumventing any system that stands in your way. This lends itself to bribes and corruption.

This is why I'm skeptical. Can e-verify succeed or would people just find ways of getting around it? How expensive does it get trying to catch employers that cheat? It's much like building a wall between the USA and Mexico: Just because you have a giant wall in place does not mean you're going to stop people from crossing the border. They will simply get more creative and will probably just go around it entirely.

And speaking of corruption lending a hand ... the Democrats continue to benefit by the illegals still being here. They spin things this way and that. Keeping the illegals in place practically guarantees that the party taking a hard line against illegal immigration loses elections. The Dems will continue to take a half-ass approach to illegal immigration and perpetuate it for as long as they can benefit from it.

Amnesty in tandem with stronger control of the border and an overhaul of the immigration system may be the only way to get this issue off the table. The GOP can't afford to alienate the Hispanic population. They're already on pace to eventually outnumber whites in America. When my son reaches adulthood, whites will constitute less than half of the USA's population. The GOP won't survive at all if they can't find a way to solve the illegal immigrant issue once and for all.
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Old 11-20-2012, 05:00 PM
 
36,220 posts, read 16,188,328 times
Reputation: 9735
Quote:
Originally Posted by godofthunder9010 View Post
I don't care about the folks who stand to lose millions of dollars either. But if you stand to lose millions, you tend to get very creative in circumventing any system that stands in your way. This lends itself to bribes and corruption.

This is why I'm skeptical. Can e-verify succeed or would people just find ways of getting around it? How expensive does it get trying to catch employers that cheat? It's much like building a wall between the USA and Mexico: Just because you have a giant wall in place does not mean you're going to stop people from crossing the border. They will simply get more creative and will probably just go around it entirely.

And speaking of corruption lending a hand ... the Democrats continue to benefit by the illegals still being here. They spin things this way and that. Keeping the illegals in place practically guarantees that the party taking a hard line against illegal immigration loses elections. The Dems will continue to take a half-ass approach to illegal immigration and perpetuate it for as long as they can benefit from it.

Amnesty in tandem with stronger control of the border and an overhaul of the immigration system may be the only way to get this issue off the table. The GOP can't afford to alienate the Hispanic population. They're already on pace to eventually outnumber whites in America. When my son reaches adulthood, whites will constitute less than half of the USA's population. The GOP won't survive at all if they can't find a way to solve the illegal immigrant issue once and for all.
We had an amnesty in 1986 and now we have 4 times the number of illegal immigrants here. Stronger control of the border? That is what we were promised in 1986. Yeah, that worked out great, didn't it? You say stronger control and yet you say even a large wall across our southern border won't stop them. Kind of contradictory, isn't it?

Do I have to repeat once again that amnesty means they will be able to retain the jobs they are working and continue to compete with Americans for jobs? How does that help the American worker while we have millions out of work? I'd like to know why enforcing our immigration laws alienates the Hispanic population in the first place. Hispanic countries have immigration laws also. Are you suggesting that only whites comprise the GOP? What does what race/ethnic group being a majority or minority in the future have to do with this? Are you saying that if Hispanics become the majority in this country we can kiss our immigration laws goodbye?

As Eleanora pointed out most of those we would amnesty are low wage earners and will depend on government subsidies to survive. We don't need those kinds of immigrants in our country.
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Old 11-20-2012, 05:23 PM
 
Location: London UK & Florida USA
7,922 posts, read 7,816,571 times
Reputation: 2035
Quote:
Originally Posted by Liquid Reigns View Post
How are they doing that when they were given no legality? They are still illegals, now with only the ability to apply for work authorization, which does not grant them a legal status only an ability to work here.
Firstly you have to understand the immigrati9n system as it stands today.
There is not just a green card to be legal here but also a work permit. The work permit allows people to work here legally. The green card gives a immigrant permenent residence and the opportunity for Citizenship.
There are people who come here as Students and have Student visas and their are some who can get a Fiance Visa. All of the above are legally here and have legal Status.
Illegals are people who are 'UNDOCUMENTED".
The Dream Act gives legal status to youngsters brought over by parents and have been educated here and this is the only home they know........ In fact, if you think about it, they are no different to the children of the original settlers who came here uninvited but stayed to become American's. Maybe the Native American's should have ignored the plight of the original settlers, let them starve to death but hey the Native American's had more humanity than many in the Republican party today.
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