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Old 10-14-2007, 07:12 PM
 
Location: SW Kansas
1,787 posts, read 3,348,640 times
Reputation: 1401

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jose Montara View Post
One of the things (two?) that amazes me about Americans is that their knowledge of history is abyssmal, and that they do not understand that the past is prologue to the present. The historical interplay between Mexico and the United States has much to do with the current problem and is ignored at our peril. .
What amazes me about illegal alien supporters is their willingness to ignore the FACTS of history, choosing instead to re-write it to suit their own point of view.

I'm really tired of arguing about it. If Mexicans think they belong here, if the Mexican government doesn't want to take care of it's citizens, if somehow for some obscure reason Americans are responsible for taking care of Mexicos poor illiterate unskilled citizens then I say let's just take the whole dang country and use it's rich resources to benifit our nation.
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Old 10-14-2007, 07:14 PM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,622,827 times
Reputation: 2983
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jose Montara View Post
One of the things (two?) that amazes me about Americans is that their knowledge of history is abyssmal, and that they do not understand that the past is prologue to the present. The historical interplay between Mexico and the United States has much to do with the current problem and is ignored at our peril. Just as the historical interplay between the United States and the Muslim world has much to do with the current problem and American ignoring of that interplay has created great peril for Americans.

Trivia; The Texicans fought for independence from Mexico because Mexico forbade slavery, and the Texicans wanted to keep their slaves, an addendum to that is "Yellow Rose of Texas" she was not a North European blonde, but a high yellow prostitute, high yellow meaning she was of mixed black and white blood.

Taking a look at your arguments, I can only conclude that I am not dealing with well educated people. You bring in all sorts of ancillary comments which still do not addresss my point. I believe I am dealing with people who have an agenda, and will ignore data and repeat opinion.

Here is my post. The Mexican American war was a war of aggression, to say that most wars are, is irrelevant. Half the nation of Mexico was lost to the Americans, whether the hold of Mexico on the territory was weak or strong is irrelevant. Mexicans resent the loss of their territory, they resent the two year occupation of their capitol, they resent the two year occupation of their sea ports. They also resent the invasion of Mexico by the Marines and Army on other occasions. fact, not opintion

There is resentment of America by Mexicans, fact not opinion

there is a movement in Mexico to recover the lost lands by illegal entry. Fact not opinion

That someone has Californio relatives who do not wish to become part of Mexico is completely irrelevant.

There is illegal immigration, fact not opinion
There is a sense among Mexicans that the Southwest is part of Mexico, fact not opinion

Take a look at what I wrote, please tell me where I made an excuse for anyone. I give you reasons why Mexicans justify certain behaviors. This is not excuse making, this is logical historical understanding.

I also need you to consider that you have an agenda that colors the way you look at data, it is your need to turn it into opinion that is nonlogical.

Here is a quote for youYou will notice that Ginsberg states the percentage of immigrants working is higher than for citizens.
The Wall Street Journal (that left wing rag) states immigrants are great investments.

That you wish to consider them criminals does not detract from the fact that the vegetables you will eat to night were probably harvested by illegals
The meat you will have for dinner was probably slaughtered by illegals.

Some of your posts infer that I am making a statement as to right or wrong about any of this, don't do that to your self, I haven't stated right or wrong about either Polks War or illegal immigration.
I'll always admire a good "rant", and you seem to be well-prepared. It's just that I am missing the point of your post. What, exactly is your objective? Most of us know there's resentment against us in Mexico. I imagine you were referring to MY Californio family who "doesn't want to live in Mexico" as irrelevant. Perhaps it's irrelevant, but it certainly isn't a very good recommendation for the Mexican vs the US system, is it? If most of the facts we've presented you with don't matter, and if we can't compare the situation to any other situation, what's the point of this entire argument? If everything is equally good and bad, and the winning and losing of a war doesn't matter, why discuss it at all? I'm missing something here.
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Old 10-14-2007, 07:14 PM
 
Location: Good ol Georgia
348 posts, read 914,868 times
Reputation: 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by saltine View Post
I recall being warned "Remember the Alamo"
Amen..we have an ancestor who died at the Alamo...seems we've not remembered the Alamo
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Old 10-15-2007, 07:28 AM
Yac
 
5,875 posts, read 6,297,498 times
Everybody please calm down. This thread is getting too emotional and its never good for discussion.
Yac.
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Old 02-13-2009, 01:53 PM
 
1 posts, read 648 times
Reputation: 10
Default Facts

Quote:
Originally Posted by jose montara View Post
one of the things (two?) that amazes me about americans is that their knowledge of history is abyssmal, and that they do not understand that the past is prologue to the present. The historical interplay between mexico and the united states has much to do with the current problem and is ignored at our peril. Just as the historical interplay between the united states and the muslim world has much to do with the current problem and american ignoring of that interplay has created great peril for americans.

Trivia; the texicans fought for independence from mexico because mexico forbade slavery, and the texicans wanted to keep their slaves, an addendum to that is "yellow rose of texas" she was not a north european blonde, but a high yellow prostitute, high yellow meaning she was of mixed black and white blood.

fact: While slavery was an issue, the primary motivation for the rebellion of the texicans, as well as other mexican citizens, was santa annas centralization of the government in the aftermath of the mexican revolution. In 1834, because of perceived troubles within the mexican government, santa anna went through a process of dissolving state legislatures, disarming state militias, and abolishing the constitution of 1824. He also imprisoned some cotton plantation owners who refused to raise their assigned crops, which were intended to be redistributed within mexico instead of being exported. These actions triggered outrage throughout mexico, not just in texas. The eventual rebellion of the texicans was shared by multiple other mexican provinces. Initially the opposition was political, however santa anna's utterly brutal methods of quelling the rebellion caused any who were opposed to violent action to take up arms.



taking a look at your arguments, i can only conclude that i am not dealing with well educated people. You bring in all sorts of ancillary comments which still do not addresss my point. I believe i am dealing with people who have an agenda, and will ignore data and repeat opinion.

Here is my post. The mexican american war was a war of aggression, to say that most wars are, is irrelevant. Half the nation of mexico was lost to the americans, whether the hold of mexico on the territory was weak or strong is irrelevant. Mexicans resent the loss of their territory, they resent the two year occupation of their capitol, they resent the two year occupation of their sea ports. They also resent the invasion of mexico by the marines and army on other occasions. Fact, not opintion

fact: The initial dispute between the two nations was based on the mexican government refusing to accept the treaty signed by the dictator santa anna after his defeat at san jacinto. Mexicans were angry that texas had joined the united states, and they refused to accept what was a valid, if unfavorable, treaty. When the us forces moved to the rio grande and fortified, the mexicans, not the us, attacked them. It can be said this was due to the us being on what the mexicans felt was thier territory, however this is clearly disputed by the treaty mentioned above. They did not like the treaty that was dealt to them, and they attacked, with superior numbers, and lost. The war began, and the result was a crushing defeat for mexico.

there is resentment of america by mexicans, fact not opinion

agreed. Though this justifies nothing.

there is a movement in mexico to recover the lost lands by illegal entry. Fact not opinion

that someone has californio relatives who do not wish to become part of mexico is completely irrelevant.

that mexicans want to try to reoccupy what they lost in the 19th century is also irrelevant.

there is illegal immigration, fact not opinion
there is a sense among mexicans that the southwest is part of mexico, fact not opinion

yet it is not part of mexico, fact, not opinion.

take a look at what i wrote, please tell me where i made an excuse for anyone. I give you reasons why mexicans justify certain behaviors. This is not excuse making, this is logical historical understanding.

no, it is justification and resentment. The war was waged, and the reasons mexico lost this conflict had less to do with american ability than with mexican divisions. This was not a case of a giant attacking a dwarf, the mexican army at the time of the war was professional and capable. It was the byzantine political divisions within the mexican govrnment that led to thier eventual defeat. Granted, they lacked a navy and thus faced invasion at vera cruz, however when the war was in the balance they lost. Wanting to change this is of absolutely no matter.

i also need you to consider that you have an agenda that colors the way you look at data, it is your need to turn it into opinion that is nonlogical.

i think you need to take your own advice. Your version of history is clearly colored by your bitterness at the defeat and your own agenda.

here is a quote for youyou will notice that ginsberg states the percentage of immigrants working is higher than for citizens.
The wall street journal (that left wing rag) states immigrants are great investments.

That you wish to consider them criminals does not detract from the fact that the vegetables you will eat to night were probably harvested by illegals
the meat you will have for dinner was probably slaughtered by illegals.

Some of your posts infer that i am making a statement as to right or wrong about any of this, don't do that to your self, i haven't stated right or wrong about either polks war or illegal immigration.
r
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