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Old 10-15-2007, 01:06 PM
 
1,510 posts, read 709,588 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PApisces View Post
I have a question for all those that believe that ILLEGALS ought to have "rights" to bypass the Immigration laws of the United States. The anti-ILLEGAL proponents are questioned endlessly to explain our viewpoints.

I would like to know what makes the pro-ILLEGALS feel that having ILLEGALS here is beneficial, why offering "amnesty" is "good" for the US, and why it is felt that we, as AMERICANS ought to be forced to pay for the undeniable economic DRAIN that ILLEGALS place on our society.
Discuss...
i dont feel that illegals should bypass the immigration processes. but i understand why they do it and will continue to do it.

a little history on hispanic (and asian and african) labor practices in america shows how hypocritical our national mindset has been and continues to be. its obvious we are just repeating history, and if we do not learn from our mistakes, we will continue to promote separation and hatred. my ideals rest within the context of peace and equality, even if i have to sacrifice some creature comforts to achieve them.

many of the people who have problems with the immigrant job market reducing paid wages fail to realize that the dollar has been devalued through private central banking (federal reserve), who was empowered by our own government through the federal reserve act. we, as a people, pay interest on our dollar before it even gets to us. and with the federal reserve's ability to print as much money as they want, without disclosing financial reports, the deflation of the dollar is felt most by the people that get it last, the consumers.. the people that pay dollars for goods. when our dollar was strong, we were able to live comfortably AND take advantage of cheap immigrant labor. look at the wealthy in the country today.. they seem to all be using cheap labor, in their business and personal practices.

a little misdirected hostility can do a lot of damage to the human race and its since of community. we are all so worried about skin color, culture, language, and money, that we fail to realize that we are all being manipulated to some degree, and its the wealthy elite, in america and mexico, that are causing the problems and perpetuating a lower class civil war.

 
Old 10-15-2007, 01:09 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by faith10 View Post
What I hear from illegals in the media is "we are coming over here and working hard for the U.S. (Big business), to better our lives and make money or we would not be here." Also in the media they call Americans lazy.

Reason that pro-illegals are for illegals is just what Michael Chertof and others say: Illegals make big money for pro-illegal attorneys, pro-illegal rights groups, pro-illegals business groups such as Big businesses and unions....the list goes on!
i dont think the media has much objectivity these days. i wouldnt trust any characterizations that they make (especially fox news), given the political slant that they are able to put in every story, every day (ever seen the documentary Outfoxed? former fox news employees testifying about impartial practices they were forced to participate in).

pro-illegal attorneys, rights groups, business groups and unions might be profitable. but i can cut that down and say that, in general, all attorneys, rights groups, business groups, and unions are profittable. why highlight one segment? it is legal to maintain a viewpoint and make it into a capitalist venture, isn't it?
 
Old 10-15-2007, 01:10 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GypsySoul22 View Post
I think the only people who will be pro-illegals are 1) the wealthy business owners-- making money by employing them at low wages (thus cutting down on employing Americans at fair wages=profits), 2) illegals themselves who come from countries where they are not able to survive financially (and where they have been told 'go to America' by their irresponsible upper classes & governments or 3) the rich who live behind gated communities where the closest they come to an 'illegal' is when Jose cuts the lawn. (Maybe 1 & 2 are the same, who knows..?)

Good topic, though. Of course, you run the risk of being called 'a racist,' which is the last ditch 'equalizer' of the person with no other argument.
what about me? a lower class white man who doesn't mind sharing!
 
Old 10-15-2007, 01:23 PM
 
1,510 posts, read 709,588 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PApisces View Post
I appreciate all of your opinions, but, I am REALLY curious to see what those who think ILLEGAL immigrants do NOT harm our Country and that they are a "Good" idea have to say. :-)

Of course "Pro-ILLEGAL" supporters never seem to do anything but ask rhetorical questions and try and attack our positions. That's what the purpose of THIS thread is designed to accomplish.
im sorry if my position comes off as rhetorical and aggressive. i assure you i am fairly concrete in my stance and can substantiate my opinion.

a synopsis:

the people indigenous to this land were invaded and murdered by european settlers, who claimed rights to the land. they subsequently established their own country, their own culture, their own language, and their own government, all without any sort of permission or agreement from the native population. the remaining native population was suppressed through force. the country went into an expansionist fervor and began conquering lands to the west and to the south, citing manifest destiny as justification for acquisition through pure force. the indigenous people had to flee past newly formed geographic borders. the new country was able to establish a successful economy, which was perpetuated through the systematic use & disposal of underpaid immigrant labor force. the chinese and latin immigrants built the railroad system, we had african slaves until the civil war (and even afterwards), and coincidentally enough, almost all of the aforementioned had been oppressed, at convenient times, by the european ruling body of the united states. the chinese exclusion act, general slavery, immigration quotas, interment camps, and most recently, secret prisons and torture. this is documented fact. you just have to read a history book or an encyclopedia.

so excuse me if i come off rhetorical or aggressive, but this hypocritical, systematic use and abuse of almost every non-white culture within this country's four walls makes me think that the white culture that is governing us is not infallible, but in fact uncompassionate and inhumane at the expense of wealth and power. that blows my mind. and at this point, it is only the rich and powerful who are truly able to exercise this discrimination and exploitation simultaneously. and the general target is now the middle and lower classes. that is why we are all in debt. that is why mexican nationals are impoverished, and we are both fighting over the scraps.

one of these days, i hope you guys all wake up, and see the true problem. a little political history lesson can give you some shocking, but accurate, understandings of how we have evolved (and i use that term loosely) as a society of exclusion, exploitation, manipulation, and coersion.
 
Old 10-15-2007, 01:56 PM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,615,066 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sponger42 View Post
I am not pro-illegal immigration. I favor immigration and the following policies:
- a sealed border
- employement-based legal immigration tied to unemployment rates (quotas no greater than 0.5% of the US population per year.)
- the elimination of family-based immigration (excluding immediate relatives)
- fines for entry without inspection (illegal border-crossing) and a visa program to allow those without criminial records, who have lived and worked here, to become permanent residents after paying the fine, additional fees, and back-taxes.

To answer your questions:

(1) An expanding base of motivated laborers is essential to economic growth. Birth rates among later-generation immigrants are insufficient to replace the current population and expand the labor pool. This leads to economic stagnation without an infusion of new labor. Naturally, it's preferable that this new labor come in the form of documented immigrants, but immigration quotas are currently eaten up (90%) by family-based immigrants, who tend to be less productive than those who immigrate for economic reasons.

(2) The pool of illegal immigrant labor is employed at below-market and below-minimum wage. Employers do not pay taxes on illegal laborers, and the entire situation of illegal immigrant labor depresses prices, depresses wages, and burdens social services without paying in the necessary taxes to maintain and expand those social services. Legalizing the illegal immigrant labor pool would bring them into the tax system, raise the cost of labor, and eliminate most of the negative economic consequences. It would be cheaper than deportation. It would do less economic damage than deportation, and it would bring in revenue through fines, back taxes, and new taxes.

(3) "Amnesty" eliminates the burden on tax-paying legal residents by shifting the taxes onto the untaxed illegal labor and their employers. It will mean some depression in industries dependent on manual labor as the cost of labor increases, but that is better than the sudden unavailablility of labor due to masss deportation, and much better than the current status quo.

Were the unemployment rate at 10% or higher, deportation might be a better economic option. In fact, that is why Mexico is all to happy too ship their excess labor here. Their corrupt political system has suppressed economic growth and created an excess of labor and high unemployment. They are "exporting/deporting" their labor to the United States to balance their labor surplus. The United State's relatively open and successful economic and political system has created a labor shortage (Unemployment at 4.6%), we can take advantage of our Neighboring country's labor surplus through an intelligent and controlled immigration policy coupled with sealed borders. By bringing in documented laborers, we fuel our economic engine. However, by enforcing low mainly family-based immigration quotas, we transform the incoming laborers into illegal undocumented untaxable labor. Therefore, it is the artificially low employment-based immigration quotas coupled with the open border which causes our current economic imbalance. To solve it, we should seal the border, increase employment-based immigration quotas, and start a process to legalize illegal aliens within the country who can prove that they are gainfully employed and have not comitted any crimes (besides entry without inspection or visa overstays)
WONDERFUL post---well-reasoned, not angry, not racist, very good research..you get an "A"....
 
Old 10-15-2007, 02:09 PM
 
1,266 posts, read 2,223,441 times
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<< "Amnesty" eliminates the burden on tax-paying legal residents by shifting the taxes onto the untaxed illegal labor and their employers.>>

Problem is, most of these people don't make enough money to pay for their own needs let alone contribute to the US tax base. Legal taxpayers would still be paying medical, welfare, etc. It means that my families quality of life is lowered to help care for someone that came here illegally. How does that make sense????
 
Old 10-15-2007, 02:42 PM
 
1,484 posts, read 3,698,282 times
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You know a "spin job" is coming when you start reading something like this:
"a little history on hispanic (and asian and african) labor practices in america shows how hypocritical our national mindset ..."

SHould we start to post things that went on in biblical times to justify their crimes....
 
Old 10-15-2007, 02:54 PM
 
1,510 posts, read 709,588 times
Reputation: 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by ducter View Post
You know a "spin job" is coming when you start reading something like this:
"a little history on hispanic (and asian and african) labor practices in america shows how hypocritical our national mindset ..."

SHould we start to post things that went on in biblical times to justify their crimes....
the white man is in power in the united states as evidenced by their dominate numbers, culture, language, and so forth. we should be discussing the history of european settler involvement within the present geographical boundaries of the united states and mexico, and how it relates to the issue at hand. that seems like an appropriate context, doesnt it?
 
Old 10-15-2007, 02:59 PM
 
1,484 posts, read 3,698,282 times
Reputation: 731
Default racist

Quote:
Originally Posted by GH0ST.. View Post
the white man is in power in the united states as evidenced by their dominate numbers, culture, language, and so forth. we should be discussing the history of european settler involvement within the present geographical boundaries of the united states and mexico, and how it relates to the issue at hand. that seems like an appropriate context, doesnt it?
The "white man" thats sounds racist to me
. Continually citing history so far back before many of the people and parents of the people who are coming here illegally occured is not relevant to the current illegal immigration problem. Its just a way to spin away from the CURRENT issue of illegal immigration.

Should I go into Iraq and debate history from hundreds of years ago and ask to be allowed t break laws...
 
Old 10-15-2007, 03:33 PM
 
1,510 posts, read 709,588 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ducter View Post
The "white man" thats sounds racist to me
it is. but there wouldnt be a "white man" if they hadnt segregated everybody else based on race alone.

Quote:
. Continually citing history so far back before many of the people and parents of the people who are coming here illegally occured is not relevant to the current illegal immigration problem. Its just a way to spin away from the CURRENT issue of illegal immigration.
using that logic, illegal immigration will not be debated in a couple generations. i guess you're just wasting your energy doing it now, since it will be all in the past soon enough...

Quote:
Should I go into Iraq and debate history from hundreds of years ago and ask to be allowed t break laws...

how is that applicable to our situation?
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