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Old 10-16-2007, 02:10 PM
 
14,218 posts, read 7,406,947 times
Reputation: 8022

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Quote:
Originally Posted by fishmonger View Post
And why are our laws set up in such a way that so many people find it necessary to jump the border, rather than coming in legally? It's not like we have a lack of space.
For the good of the American people.

 
Old 10-16-2007, 02:39 PM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,615,066 times
Reputation: 2983
Quote:
Originally Posted by fishmonger View Post
Isn't "importing poverty" what the big inanimate lady in New York says we're supposed to do?
I know you're "playing" with us, your trusting readers, but I'll go along. Yes, that's what the "big lady" says (though, close-up, she's no "looker"). But "she" assumed a lot of things---just like the founders of this country did. They probably assumed, or took for granted, three times more than they ever wrote down.
When we were directed to take in all these "unwanted", it was ASSUMED that they'd respond in kind. They'd fall down and KISS THE GROUND in gratitude, rush out into their new lives, and proceed with all haste to become NEW AMERICANS---usually prouder, more thankful, and more patriotic even than some of tne "old timers" already here. They'd lose no time in cutting their ties to their "old" countries, and would have a burning desire to assimilate here just as FAST as they could. Some of them would even change their names, in order to "fit in", and some of their own kids were even ashamed of "the old man's" weird accent and strange, foreign ways. They were AMERICANS!
Those days are gone now, in large part due to our own love-affair with multiculturalism. We no longer require anyone to assimilate---or to speak English--or to be patriotic---or even to be thankful at all. We are here to "alleviate" their poverty and to "accomodate" them. The burden is on US, not on the immigrants. We OWE it to them. When they gripe and complain, we LISTEN to them, feel "bad" that they're upset with us, and try even HARDER to "get along" with them.

THAT'S the difference between the "old" immigrants and the "new".
As far as our being less "critical" of hypothetical Canadian illegals, like so many "what ifs", there are just too many variables to give a coherent answer, but I'd be willing to guess that, IF the Canadians were dirt-poor, IF they insisted they were the real owners of the US, IF they insisted on all services in French, and IF they had angry activists both in US society and back in Canada, lambasting the "evil" US at every turn, then yes, I'd say we'd probably be getting pretty fed-up with them.
Interesting subject for discussion.....
 
Old 10-16-2007, 02:40 PM
 
16,092 posts, read 35,784,302 times
Reputation: 6264
I wonder if Canadians would come here and decide they didn't have to obey any of our laws and then get out in the streets making demands and berating US Citizens for not putting them above the law.
 
Old 10-16-2007, 02:50 PM
 
Location: Northern VA (for now)
23,004 posts, read 31,957,905 times
Reputation: 30387
Quote:
Originally Posted by fishmonger View Post
if we had a large influx of Canadian illegal immigrants, rather than Mexican ones? Would you get as riled up? Just wondering. Would you go out in the streets and protest, or would you be bragging about "how much better our healthcare system is" and "how the Canadians are finally realizing that the US is the only land of opportunity," or something like that?
what reason do canadians have to hop illegally into the US? if anything, canada should be worried about americans hoppin the borders as fast as things are goin downhill here.
 
Old 10-16-2007, 03:20 PM
 
Location: Your mind
2,923 posts, read 4,485,827 times
Reputation: 589
Quote:
Originally Posted by saltine View Post
For the good of the American people.
What about the world's people? World poverty? I agree that we should hold the interests of our citizens, to some degree, to be more important than the interests of people from other countries, as long as the other countries of the world do the same, but to WHAT degree? Absolute? Do we have to be completely self-interested? Should we be nationalistic to the expense of the rest of the world's people?
 
Old 10-16-2007, 03:21 PM
 
Location: Your mind
2,923 posts, read 4,485,827 times
Reputation: 589
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lakewooder View Post
I wonder if Canadians would come here and decide they didn't have to obey any of our laws and then get out in the streets making demands and berating US Citizens for not putting them above the law.
Yes, every illegal immigrant in America does that, they all think exactly alike.
 
Old 10-16-2007, 04:02 PM
 
Location: Your mind
2,923 posts, read 4,485,827 times
Reputation: 589
Quote:
Originally Posted by macmeal View Post
I know you're "playing" with us, your trusting readers, but I'll go along. Yes, that's what the "big lady" says (though, close-up, she's no "looker"). But "she" assumed a lot of things---just like the founders of this country did. They probably assumed, or took for granted, three times more than they ever wrote down.
When we were directed to take in all these "unwanted", it was ASSUMED that they'd respond in kind. They'd fall down and KISS THE GROUND in gratitude, rush out into their new lives, and proceed with all haste to become NEW AMERICANS---usually prouder, more thankful, and more patriotic even than some of tne "old timers" already here. They'd lose no time in cutting their ties to their "old" countries, and would have a burning desire to assimilate here just as FAST as they could. Some of them would even change their names, in order to "fit in", and some of their own kids were even ashamed of "the old man's" weird accent and strange, foreign ways. They were AMERICANS!
Those days are gone now, in large part due to our own love-affair with multiculturalism. We no longer require anyone to assimilate---or to speak English--or to be patriotic---or even to be thankful at all. We are here to "alleviate" their poverty and to "accomodate" them. The burden is on US, not on the immigrants. We OWE it to them. When they gripe and complain, we LISTEN to them, feel "bad" that they're upset with us, and try even HARDER to "get along" with them.
Some thought for food

http://www.apsanet.org/imgtest/Persp...itrin_etal.pdf

“Language use
is the one domain where comparison with the past is pos-
sible, and here the evidence is that the traditional march
by successive generations toward monolingualism in
English is recurring.”


“As noted earlier, the evidence presented here clearly
establishes that the acquisition of English and the loss of
Spanish occur rapidly beginning with the second genera-
tion of Hispanic immigrants. While the initial level of
English-speaking is lower among Mexican than other immi-
grants, the rate of linguistic assimilation between genera-
tions is at parity if not more rapid for this group. Moreover,
whereas residential concentration in ethnic enclaves con-
tributes to the retention of Spanish, this does not slow the
learning of English, and bilingual Hispanics are more sim-
ilar in their political self-concept to English-dominant than
Spanish-dominant Hispanics.”


“Patriotic sentiment among Hispanics is pervasive. While
blacks and non-citizen Hispanics express slightly less patri-
otism than whites, after adjusting for differences in age
and education native-born Hispanics actually evidenced
higher levels of patriotism. And neither a tendency to refer
to oneself as a Hispanic-American rather than “just an
American” nor a strong sense of ethnic identification dimin-
ished expressions of patriotism.”


Immigrants

“From 1870 to 1920 fifteen percent of the total population was foreign born. Today that figure is down to eight percent.”

I don’t know if the above is true, since it came from an uncited article in a magazine, but maybe we should put a little more perspective into this?

The following is from a conservative think tank that I don’t agree with on everything, and being so they likely exxagerate/cook statistics (ala the Heritage Foundation, Economic Policy Institute, Cato Institute, etc.) but the figures are interesting nonetheless:

The Wall Street Journal

“Mexican-born men, for example, had higher labor force participation rates than native-born male workers, 88% compared with 83%, and lower unemployment rates than native workers, 4.4% compared with 5.1% in 2006. Labor force participation rates of illegal aliens are higher yet, a whopping 94%.”

(They’re all on welfare!)

“More importantly, the children of Hispanic immigrants are graduating from high school. The high school completion rate for young, U.S.-born Hispanics is 86%, only slightly lower than the 92% of non-Hispanic whites”

(They aren’t educating themselves!)

“But despite anxiety that Hispanics aren't learning English and will soon insist that the U.S. become bilingual, the evidence suggests otherwise. True enough, most Hispanic immigrants have poor English skills: The 2000 Census reported that 26 million people spoke Spanish at home, and of these, 14 million were unable to speak English well. But there is nothing unusual about this; historically most immigrant groups have taken a generation or more to produce fluent English speakers. In 1900, nearly 50 years after the peak period of German immigration, 600,000 students attended German bilingual schools in the U.S.
But if Hispanic immigrants have been slow to learn English, their American-born progeny have quickly adapted. English is the preferred language of virtually all U.S.-born Hispanics; according to a study by the Pew Hispanic Center, indeed, 78% of third-generation Hispanics cannot speak Spanish at all. Even in Southern California, an area with the largest population of Spanish speakers in the nation, 96% of third-generation Mexican Americans prefer to speak English at home, according to a recent study by sociologists Ruben Rumbaut, Douglas Massey and Frank Bean.”


(They aren’t learning English and don’t want to!)

“…Population Reference Bureau notes in its 2005 study of intermarriage that, because most children of intermarriages are reported as Hispanic on Census data, "Hispanic intermarriage may have been a factor in the phenomenal growth of the U.S. Hispanic population in recent years, and it has important implications for future growth and characteristics of the Hispanic population." In other words, the widely cited prediction that by mid-century Hispanics will represent fully one third of the U.S. population fails to take into account that increasing numbers of these so-called Hispanics will have only one grandparent or great-grandparent of Hispanic heritage. At which point Hispanic ethnicity will mean little more than German, Italian or Irish ethnicity does today.”

(They’re takin’ over!)

Quote:
THAT'S the difference between the "old" immigrants and the "new". As far as our being less "critical" of hypothetical Canadian illegals, like so many "what ifs", there are just too many variables to give a coherent answer, but I'd be willing to guess that, IF the Canadians were dirt-poor, IF they insisted they were the real owners of the US, IF they insisted on all services in French, and IF they had angry activists both in US society and back in Canada, lambasting the "evil" US at every turn, then yes, I'd say we'd probably be getting pretty fed-up with them.
Interesting subject for discussion.....
Are "they" (illegal immigrants) all doing these things? Or are they just coming here to work, mostly, as the above information would imply?

And... getting back on topic, (sorry), if we had an influx of Canadian illegal immigrants, would you guys be pushing for punishments just as harsh? You know, mass deportation, imprisonment, "FairTax," turning away at emergency rooms? If not, would that be just?

Last edited by fishmonger; 10-16-2007 at 04:22 PM..
 
Old 10-16-2007, 05:02 PM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,615,066 times
Reputation: 2983
Quote:
Originally Posted by fishmonger View Post
Some thought for food

http://www.apsanet.org/imgtest/Persp...itrin_etal.pdf

“Language use
is the one domain where comparison with the past is pos-
sible, and here the evidence is that the traditional march
by successive generations toward monolingualism in
English is recurring.”


“As noted earlier, the evidence presented here clearly
establishes that the acquisition of English and the loss of
Spanish occur rapidly beginning with the second genera-
tion of Hispanic immigrants. While the initial level of
English-speaking is lower among Mexican than other immi-
grants, the rate of linguistic assimilation between genera-
tions is at parity if not more rapid for this group. Moreover,
whereas residential concentration in ethnic enclaves con-
tributes to the retention of Spanish, this does not slow the
learning of English, and bilingual Hispanics are more sim-
ilar in their political self-concept to English-dominant than
Spanish-dominant Hispanics.”


“Patriotic sentiment among Hispanics is pervasive. While
blacks and non-citizen Hispanics express slightly less patri-
otism than whites, after adjusting for differences in age
and education native-born Hispanics actually evidenced
higher levels of patriotism. And neither a tendency to refer
to oneself as a Hispanic-American rather than “just an
American” nor a strong sense of ethnic identification dimin-
ished expressions of patriotism.”


Immigrants

“From 1870 to 1920 fifteen percent of the total population was foreign born. Today that figure is down to eight percent.”

I don’t know if the above is true, since it came from an uncited article in a magazine, but maybe we should put a little more perspective into this?

The following is from a conservative think tank that I don’t agree with on everything, and being so they likely exxagerate/cook statistics (ala the Heritage Foundation, Economic Policy Institute, Cato Institute, etc.) but the figures are interesting nonetheless:

The Wall Street Journal

“Mexican-born men, for example, had higher labor force participation rates than native-born male workers, 88% compared with 83%, and lower unemployment rates than native workers, 4.4% compared with 5.1% in 2006. Labor force participation rates of illegal aliens are higher yet, a whopping 94%.”

(They’re all on welfare!)

“More importantly, the children of Hispanic immigrants are graduating from high school. The high school completion rate for young, U.S.-born Hispanics is 86%, only slightly lower than the 92% of non-Hispanic whites”

(They aren’t educating themselves!)

“But despite anxiety that Hispanics aren't learning English and will soon insist that the U.S. become bilingual, the evidence suggests otherwise. True enough, most Hispanic immigrants have poor English skills: The 2000 Census reported that 26 million people spoke Spanish at home, and of these, 14 million were unable to speak English well. But there is nothing unusual about this; historically most immigrant groups have taken a generation or more to produce fluent English speakers. In 1900, nearly 50 years after the peak period of German immigration, 600,000 students attended German bilingual schools in the U.S.
But if Hispanic immigrants have been slow to learn English, their American-born progeny have quickly adapted. English is the preferred language of virtually all U.S.-born Hispanics; according to a study by the Pew Hispanic Center, indeed, 78% of third-generation Hispanics cannot speak Spanish at all. Even in Southern California, an area with the largest population of Spanish speakers in the nation, 96% of third-generation Mexican Americans prefer to speak English at home, according to a recent study by sociologists Ruben Rumbaut, Douglas Massey and Frank Bean.”


(They aren’t learning English and don’t want to!)

“…Population Reference Bureau notes in its 2005 study of intermarriage that, because most children of intermarriages are reported as Hispanic on Census data, "Hispanic intermarriage may have been a factor in the phenomenal growth of the U.S. Hispanic population in recent years, and it has important implications for future growth and characteristics of the Hispanic population." In other words, the widely cited prediction that by mid-century Hispanics will represent fully one third of the U.S. population fails to take into account that increasing numbers of these so-called Hispanics will have only one grandparent or great-grandparent of Hispanic heritage. At which point Hispanic ethnicity will mean little more than German, Italian or Irish ethnicity does today.”

(They’re takin’ over!)



Are "they" (illegal immigrants) all doing these things? Or are they just coming here to work, mostly, as the above information would imply?

And... getting back on topic, (sorry), if we had an influx of Canadian illegal immigrants, would you guys be pushing for punishments just as harsh? You know, mass deportation, imprisonment, "FairTax," turning away at emergency rooms? If not, would that be just?
I don't have the info at hand to challenge you. You're probably largely correct. If, as my "gut" tells me, you're trying to imply there's a racist angle to all this, that, too is correct. Anytime there's a conflict involving different racial groups, racism will find its way into the fray. The problem is in separating the "good", and disgruntled, American citizens, who certainly DO have a very legitimate "gripe", from the free-lance racists who obviously are going to profess an "interest" in this because of their great "patriotism" Between you and me, I seriously doubt that they're motivated by patriotism---but that's what they tell us.

I have an interracial family, and we could possibly be impacted by any unpleasantness associated with the increasing tensions over immigration. Nevertheless, it's a very serious issue, and needs to be addressed soon. It simply can't be allowed to continue as it is now. That's not a "feeling"--that's simple fact.
 
Old 10-16-2007, 05:09 PM
 
Location: Pa
20,310 posts, read 18,884,971 times
Reputation: 6517
Quote:
Originally Posted by fishmonger View Post
if we had a large influx of Canadian illegal immigrants, rather than Mexican ones? Would you get as riled up? Just wondering. Would you go out in the streets and protest, or would you be bragging about "how much better our healthcare system is" and "how the Canadians are finally realizing that the US is the only land of opportunity," or something like that?
In a word? YES....
My wife is Thai, my best friend in the military is hispanic. Its not a race issue. Its an issue of law, an issue of right and wrong.
 
Old 10-16-2007, 05:14 PM
 
14,218 posts, read 7,406,947 times
Reputation: 8022
Quote:
Originally Posted by fishmonger View Post
What about the world's people? World poverty? I agree that we should hold the interests of our citizens, to some degree, to be more important than the interests of people from other countries, as long as the other countries of the world do the same, but to WHAT degree? Absolute? Do we have to be completely self-interested? Should we be nationalistic to the expense of the rest of the world's people?
As far as I know, we are the most giving people on Earth. We're not askin for much, just enforce the law.
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