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Old 12-28-2012, 06:24 PM
 
3,185 posts, read 5,792,768 times
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It dont make no difference what these drug runners do. If they start shooting machine guns at the ranchers as soon as the ranchers kill someone they will be charged with murder..Drug runners dont obey rules but the ranchers will have to...
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Old 12-29-2012, 02:06 AM
 
Location: The Brat Stop
8,353 posts, read 5,994,199 times
Reputation: 2279
Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
Again, you have still not explained how our laws are outdated. I didn't miss it, because you never stated it. You have only said you agree with Obama's approach, which is a blanket amnesty. Been there, done that. Since you support another amnesty after the abysmal failure of the last, you apparently believe this country needs to experience a more massive illegal immigration problem, more ID theft and fraud, and more fleecing of U.S. taxpayers, because that's exactly what we'll get.

You only mentioned Mexicans. Do you believe we should also allow unlimited numbers of Haitians to live in the U.S. and grant visas to their families? After all, their country is in far worse condition than Mexico.

You highlighted the following quote. So, I reiterate. NO employed illegal alien fits your "committed no offenses other than misdemeanors" category. Again, ID theft and tax evasion are federal felony offenses, not misdemeanors. Therefore, who are you suggesting should be granted citizenship?
This is how I would work it.

For illegals caught in the desert, immediate documenting {fingerprint-mugshot-etc.} and deportation.
For illegals caught working for ranches, farms, Tyson Chicken, Hormel, Palermos, IBP, etc., immediate documentation, a court date and a hearing to find out more about the illegal worker, his/her family, why they're here, an international criminal background check of the illegal and immediate family if also in the USA. Verify the illegal's address, name, fingerprint, mugshot, etc.., and immediate family if living in same residence. Assess fines for using fraudulent documentation, e.g., false SS number, names, etc., and allow that person to stay as long as they're paying fines and employment taxes.


For illegals who have been in the USA for 4 years or more, a pathway to citizenship, within 1-2 years, as long as the person/s have a clean criminal background, and as long as they have paid assessed fines in a predetermined amount of time. Requirement that illegals attend schooling to learn the english language, American History and our Constitution during that 1-2 year period.

From your posts, I'm gathering that you are totally anti-immigrant, and would like to round up and deport, what, 20+ million? of them? good luck with that. How big of a ss squad do you believe you'd need to do that? 5 million officers? 10 million? Kind of like the old Nazi squads that went door to door in europe looking for jews? Meanwhile, who is going to be processing the foods you eat everyday? Who will be picking your produce from the fields? Americans? How much are you willing to pay Americans to help put foods in your refrigerator? $10 and hour? $15 an hour? Because you're not going to find many Americans to do back breaking work for our present minimum wage. Not realistically. We're not talking about glamorous jobs here, we're talking dirty, back breaking work, and producers look to pay labor as little as possible to make profits to stay in business.

Now, getting to the thread topic, ranchers along the borders are between a rock and a hard place on this issue. They cannot go out and randomly shoot people for simple trespass, unless of course an illegal attempts a home invasion. Presently, all they can do is notify authorities and wait.
The US can build as high a fence as practical, and people will still find a way in, no matter how tough immigration laws are.


Amazing Drug Tunnel Under U.S./Mexican Border Discovered - YouTube
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Old 12-29-2012, 07:03 AM
 
36,982 posts, read 16,404,056 times
Reputation: 9948
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoJiveMan View Post
This is how I would work it.

For illegals caught in the desert, immediate documenting {fingerprint-mugshot-etc.} and deportation.
For illegals caught working for ranches, farms, Tyson Chicken, Hormel, Palermos, IBP, etc., immediate documentation, a court date and a hearing to find out more about the illegal worker, his/her family, why they're here, an international criminal background check of the illegal and immediate family if also in the USA. Verify the illegal's address, name, fingerprint, mugshot, etc.., and immediate family if living in same residence. Assess fines for using fraudulent documentation, e.g., false SS number, names, etc., and allow that person to stay as long as they're paying fines and employment taxes.


For illegals who have been in the USA for 4 years or more, a pathway to citizenship, within 1-2 years, as long as the person/s have a clean criminal background, and as long as they have paid assessed fines in a predetermined amount of time. Requirement that illegals attend schooling to learn the english language, American History and our Constitution during that 1-2 year period.

From your posts, I'm gathering that you are totally anti-immigrant, and would like to round up and deport, what, 20+ million? of them? good luck with that. How big of a ss squad do you believe you'd need to do that? 5 million officers? 10 million? Kind of like the old Nazi squads that went door to door in europe looking for jews? Meanwhile, who is going to be processing the foods you eat everyday? Who will be picking your produce from the fields? Americans? How much are you willing to pay Americans to help put foods in your refrigerator? $10 and hour? $15 an hour? Because you're not going to find many Americans to do back breaking work for our present minimum wage. Not realistically. We're not talking about glamorous jobs here, we're talking dirty, back breaking work, and producers look to pay labor as little as possible to make profits to stay in business.

Now, getting to the thread topic, ranchers along the borders are between a rock and a hard place on this issue. They cannot go out and randomly shoot people for simple trespass, unless of course an illegal attempts a home invasion. Presently, all they can do is notify authorities and wait.
The US can build as high a fence as practical, and people will still find a way in, no matter how tough immigration laws are.


Amazing Drug Tunnel Under U.S./Mexican Border Discovered - YouTube
Right, rewarding immigration lawbreakers including forgiving their felonies of using fake or stolen ID's or tax evasion with petty fines and other requirements that will have to be monitored at our expense (but it won't knowing our government) is the way to go. It worked so well with the 1986 amnesty and this time we have at least 4 times the number of illegal immigrants here today. Once they have been made citizens since they are low wage earners with children they can tap into our already depleted welfare coffers.

There is no need to round them all up. All that needs to be done is to remove the incentives for them to remain here or to continue to come here such as job, benefits and birthright citizenship. A high fence/wall is a deterrant also. It assists the BP to do their job more effectively.

How many times does it have to be repeated in here that only 3% of illegal immigrants are picking crops and for those jobs we have unlimited visas for legal workers? How many times does it have to be repeated that most of the jobs they are holding Americans have always done? We need the jobs that they are holding with 23 million Americans out of work. That is another good reason to make them leave rather than allowing them to stay. I see no reason to reward any just because they have managed to evade the law the longest.

I am not an advocate for violence but it is perfectly ok to shoot an intruder into your home once warned to leave but not ok to guard our borders in that manner? I don't want to see it come to that and it doesn't have to if we implemented my solutions above. It won't stop illegal immigration entirely but we could cut it down to a trickle and that would be the desired result. If you think it is only innocent little peasant Mexicans looking for work that are gettiing through our border you are really being naive.

Anti-immigrant? Who is anti-immigrant? You do know the difference between being anti-immigrant and anti-illegal immigration, don't you?
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Old 12-29-2012, 08:54 AM
 
Location: The Brat Stop
8,353 posts, read 5,994,199 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oldglory View Post
Right, rewarding immigration lawbreakers including forgiving their felonies of using fake or stolen ID's or tax evasion with petty fines and other requirements that will have to be monitored at our expense (but it won't knowing our government) is the way to go. It worked so well with the 1986 amnesty and this time we have at least 4 times the number of illegal immigrants here today. Once they have been made citizens since they are low wage earners with children they can tap into our already depleted welfare coffers.

There is no need to round them all up. All that needs to be done is to remove the incentives for them to remain here or to continue to come here such as job, benefits and birthright citizenship. A high fence/wall is a deterrant also. It assists the BP to do their job more effectively.

How many times does it have to be repeated in here that only 3% of illegal immigrants are picking crops and for those jobs we have unlimited visas for legal workers? How many times does it have to be repeated that most of the jobs they are holding Americans have always done? We need the jobs that they are holding with 23 million Americans out of work. That is another good reason to make them leave rather than allowing them to stay. I see no reason to reward any just because they have managed to evade the law the longest.

I am not an advocate for violence but it is perfectly ok to shoot an intruder into your home once warned to leave but not ok to guard our borders in that manner? I don't want to see it come to that and it doesn't have to if we implemented my solutions above. It won't stop illegal immigration entirely but we could cut it down to a trickle and that would be the desired result. If you think it is only innocent little peasant Mexicans looking for work that are gettiing through our border you are really being naive.

Anti-immigrant? Who is anti-immigrant? You do know the difference between being anti-immigrant and anti-illegal immigration, don't you?
Interesting. Only 3% of illegals pick crops. OK, if you say so, I won't research it. But, if it's only 3%, that would hardly make a dent in UE numbers of 23 million Americans out of work.

How would you attack the problem that ranchers are facing in the southwest?

How would you attack the problem knowing there are almost 12 Million illegals in the US?


When I typed anti-immigrant, I really meant anti-illegal immigrant, pardon me for not being explicit in my wording.

What would you do about the problem other than stemming the tide? Would you round them up and deport? If so, how many officers would you employ?
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Old 12-29-2012, 09:08 AM
 
36,982 posts, read 16,404,056 times
Reputation: 9948
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoJiveMan View Post
Interesting. Only 3% of illegals pick crops. OK, if you say so, I won't research it. But, if it's only 3%, that would hardly make a dent in UE numbers of 23 million Americans out of work.

How would you attack the problem that ranchers are facing in the southwest?

How would you attack the problem knowing there are almost 12 Million illegals in the US?

When I typed anti-immigrant, I really meant anti-illegal immigrant, pardon me for not being explicit in my wording.

What would you do about the problem other than stemming the tide? Would you round them up and deport? If so, how many officers would you employ?
I don't have the stats readily available for the percent of illegal immigrants that are picking crops but they have been posted in here many times and it is a mere 3%. There is no reason to hire illegal immigrants for those jobs either since there are unlimited visas for legal foreign agricultural workers. The growers hire illegal immigrants instead to increase their profits. It is the 97% of illegal immigrants that are holding jobs that Americans need and are entitled to. So if they were removed from this country that would put a huge dent in our unemployment.

I would insist that our government secure our borders and pull out all the stops to do so. Therefore, the ranchers wouldn't be having the problems they are having.

I already stated my solution to cut illegal immigration way back and that is by removing all the incentives for them to remain here or to continue to come here which are jobs, benefits and birthright citizenship. Most would self-deport without any reason to remain here. Even Homeland Security has said it would be cheaper to deport them rather than allowing them to remain here. So your claim about it being too expensive to do so holds no water.

The pro-illegal immigrant advocates often call us anti-immigrant. They like to blur the lines between legal and illegal immigrants. So, I'd be careful how you phrase things in here if you don't want to be included in using that dishonest tactic.
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Old 12-29-2012, 09:35 AM
 
Location: Maryland
15,179 posts, read 16,249,115 times
Reputation: 3029
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoJiveMan View Post
This is how I would work it.

For illegals caught in the desert, immediate documenting {fingerprint-mugshot-etc.} and deportation.
For illegals caught working for ranches, farms, Tyson Chicken, Hormel, Palermos, IBP, etc., immediate documentation, a court date and a hearing to find out more about the illegal worker, his/her family, why they're here, an international criminal background check of the illegal and immediate family if also in the USA. Verify the illegal's address, name, fingerprint, mugshot, etc.., and immediate family if living in same residence. Assess fines for using fraudulent documentation, e.g., false SS number, names, etc., and allow that person to stay as long as they're paying fines and employment taxes.
Who will pay for their documentation, biometrics, photos, court costs, international background checks, medical screening, etc? Those procedures are rather costly, far more than the average illegal can afford. Or, are you suggesting U.S. taxpayers should foot the bill?

Sorry, but our current laws require ID thieves, frauds, and tax evaders to receive more than a measly slap on the wrist. If caught, they are indicted and prosecuted at taxpayers' expense. If convicted, they are incarcerated. Also, at taxpayers' expense. Again, they are not minor offenses. Please explain why we should allow illegal aliens to commit those crimes with impunity, while citizens are punished. Or, should we have a two-tiered system of justice -- one for illegal aliens, another for citizens/legal immigrants? Furthermore, why should taxpayers bear this unnecessary financial burden? Moreover, why would we want to legalize known criminals? Don't we already have enough crooks?

Quote:
Originally Posted by NoJiveMan View Post
For illegals who have been in the USA for 4 years or more, a pathway to citizenship, within 1-2 years, as long as the person/s have a clean criminal background, and as long as they have paid assessed fines in a predetermined amount of time. Requirement that illegals attend schooling to learn the english language, American History and our Constitution during that 1-2 year period.
In other words, if an illegal alien manages to evade the law for 4 or more years, notwithstanding committing ID theft, fraud, tax evasion, robbery, rape, murder, you name it, as long as they were never caught and have no criminal record, they should be rewarded with a path to citizenship? How is that just? Should we also reward citizen criminals who possess similar abilities to avoid detection?

Quote:
Originally Posted by NoJiveMan View Post
From your posts, I'm gathering that you are totally anti-immigrant, and would like to round up and deport, what, 20+ million? of them? good luck with that. How big of a ss squad do you believe you'd need to do that? 5 million officers? 10 million? Kind of like the old Nazi squads that went door to door in europe looking for jews? Meanwhile, who is going to be processing the foods you eat everyday? Who will be picking your produce from the fields? Americans? How much are you willing to pay Americans to help put foods in your refrigerator? $10 and hour? $15 an hour? Because you're not going to find many Americans to do back breaking work for our present minimum wage. Not realistically. We're not talking about glamorous jobs here, we're talking dirty, back breaking work, and producers look to pay labor as little as possible to make profits to stay in business.
What part of "I am NOT anti-immigrant" are you having difficulty comprehending? For the LAST time, I oppose illegal immigration, not legal immigration. If you continue to ignore this, I can only surmise you are either willfully ignorant or compelled to follow a script.

Please see Oldglory's post #43. The notion that illegals are only doing the jobs "Americans won't do" has been thoroughly and repeatedly debunked. You obviously haven't researched this issue. Otherwise, you wouldn't post such nonsense. But, let me know if you need to see concrete evidence. I will gladly oblige.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NoJiveMan View Post
Now, getting to the thread topic, ranchers along the borders are between a rock and a hard place on this issue. They cannot go out and randomly shoot people for simple trespass, unless of course an illegal attempts a home invasion. Presently, all they can do is notify authorities and wait.
I could be mistaken, but I do believe in Texas, ranchers may legally protect their property from trespassers, including using lethal force. In fact, I recall an incident in which a man shot and killed someone who was trespassing on his neighbor's property. He wasn't charged with a crime. So, I doubt they're between a rock and a hard place. However, I don't know if this is the case in New Mexico, Arizona, or California. But, the fact that illegals brazenly trespass, only exemplifies the ineptitude of DHS, and the vulnerability of our borders. If illiterate peasants can enter this country at will, imagine how easily sophisticated terrorist organizations can breach our border security. In fact, it must be child's play for them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NoJiveMan View Post
The US can build as high a fence as practical, and people will still find a way in, no matter how tough immigration laws are.
Listen to yourself. You are a proponent of so-called immigration reform (amnesty), which will include the enactment of new laws you wholeheartedly support as a viable solution. Yet, you just stated, "people will still find a way in." So, please explain what would be accomplished by granting another amnesty, if illegal immigration will continue unabated. You have unwittingly demonstrated why amnesty was not the answer in 1986, is not the answer now, and never will be.
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Old 12-29-2012, 09:41 AM
 
Location: Maryland
15,179 posts, read 16,249,115 times
Reputation: 3029
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoJiveMan View Post
Interesting. Only 3% of illegals pick crops. OK, if you say so, I won't research it. But, if it's only 3%, that would hardly make a dent in UE numbers of 23 million Americans out of work.

How would you attack the problem that ranchers are facing in the southwest?

How would you attack the problem knowing there are almost 12 Million illegals in the US?


When I typed anti-immigrant, I really meant anti-illegal immigrant, pardon me for not being explicit in my wording.

What would you do about the problem other than stemming the tide? Would you round them up and deport? If so, how many officers would you employ?
Oh, I see you have corrected your "anti-immigrant" accusation. Thank you.

We don't need to employ anyone to "round them up." We only need to enforce our laws, deny them all tax-funded services and benefits, make it impossible for them to work in this country, and they will leave. We have already seen the exodus from states when they even propose strict anti-illegal laws. Imagine what would happen at the federal level nationwide. They remain here simply because their lawlessness is tolerated and facilitated by our government.
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Old 12-29-2012, 10:03 AM
 
Location: California
2,477 posts, read 1,779,434 times
Reputation: 299
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoJiveMan View Post
Here's part of the problems. An immigrant {illegal} came to America years ago, obtained a job, has worked for years, paid his/her taxes, and was found to be here illegally. He/she has family {wife/husband/daughter/son} in Mexico. Authorities want to deport him/her after being here for many years. He/she wishes and prays for citizenship for himself/herself and family living in Mexico.

As long as this illegal immigrant has committed no offenses other than misdemeanors {traffic/parking, etc} let's allow citizenship to him/her, allow his immediate family temporary visas, and see how they behave themselves. If they do not, then deport.
Lets correct some of your wording. Traffic tickets are violations, not misdemeanors. A Federal Misdemeanor (NOTE: This is not a state misdemeanor) was the illegal entry into the US without a visa. You seem to be attempting to place EWI's into the same context as an visa overstay.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NoJiveMan View Post
This is how I would work it.

For illegals caught in the desert, immediate documenting {fingerprint-mugshot-etc.} and deportation.
For illegals caught working for ranches, farms, Tyson Chicken, Hormel, Palermos, IBP, etc., immediate documentation, a court date and a hearing to find out more about the illegal worker, his/her family, why they're here, an international criminal background check of the illegal and immediate family if also in the USA. Verify the illegal's address, name, fingerprint, mugshot, etc.., and immediate family if living in same residence. Assess fines for using fraudulent documentation, e.g., false SS number, names, etc., and allow that person to stay as long as they're paying fines and employment taxes.


For illegals who have been in the USA for 4 years or more, a pathway to citizenship, within 1-2 years, as long as the person/s have a clean criminal background, and as long as they have paid assessed fines in a predetermined amount of time. Requirement that illegals attend schooling to learn the english language, American History and our Constitution during that 1-2 year period.

From your posts, I'm gathering that you are totally anti-immigrant, and would like to round up and deport, what, 20+ million? of them? good luck with that. How big of a ss squad do you believe you'd need to do that? 5 million officers? 10 million? Kind of like the old Nazi squads that went door to door in europe looking for jews? Meanwhile, who is going to be processing the foods you eat everyday? Who will be picking your produce from the fields? Americans? How much are you willing to pay Americans to help put foods in your refrigerator? $10 and hour? $15 an hour? Because you're not going to find many Americans to do back breaking work for our present minimum wage. Not realistically. We're not talking about glamorous jobs here, we're talking dirty, back breaking work, and producers look to pay labor as little as possible to make profits to stay in business.

Now, getting to the thread topic, ranchers along the borders are between a rock and a hard place on this issue. They cannot go out and randomly shoot people for simple trespass, unless of course an illegal attempts a home invasion. Presently, all they can do is notify authorities and wait.
The US can build as high a fence as practical, and people will still find a way in, no matter how tough immigration laws are.
Those fines should be jail sentences to include fines according to US Code.

Law already allows for illegals that have been here for 10 documentable years to ask for relief from the courts. Why should it be changed to 4 years? Why a path to citizenship? Many simply want the ability to work here legally, not to become citizens.

Why create an analogy of the Nazi's? Whats wrong with deporting them simply as they are found? Whats wrong with encouraging them to leave on their own? Why not make it easier for them to go back home without having to be stopped on our side of the border?

Fuel costs have a larger impact on the cost of produce then do pickers wages.

I agree about the ranchers.

People may still find ways in, but those ways will be limited, harder, and for not in the end, provided we enforce our laws.
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Old 12-29-2012, 11:08 AM
 
Location: The Brat Stop
8,353 posts, read 5,994,199 times
Reputation: 2279
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oldglory View Post
I don't have the stats readily available for the percent of illegal immigrants that are picking crops but they have been posted in here many times and it is a mere 3%. There is no reason to hire illegal immigrants for those jobs either since there are unlimited visas for legal foreign agricultural workers. The growers hire illegal immigrants instead to increase their profits. It is the 97% of illegal immigrants that are holding jobs that Americans need and are entitled to. So if they were removed from this country that would put a huge dent in our unemployment.

I would insist that our government secure our borders and pull out all the stops to do so. Therefore, the ranchers wouldn't be having the problems they are having.

I already stated my solution to cut illegal immigration way back and that is by removing all the incentives for them to remain here or to continue to come here which are jobs, benefits and birthright citizenship. Most would self-deport without any reason to remain here. Even Homeland Security has said it would be cheaper to deport them rather than allowing them to remain here. So your claim about it being too expensive to do so holds no water.

The pro-illegal immigrant advocates often call us anti-immigrant. They like to blur the lines between legal and illegal immigrants. So, I'd be careful how you phrase things in here if you don't want to be included in using that dishonest tactic.
23 Million unemployed, deport 12 million illegals, oh, that would cut unemployment down to 11 million.

I did correct my phrase, and if you want a public apology, I apologize for lumping anti immigrant with anti-illegal immigrant.

Incentives for illegals to stay in America.
I can see right off that you are a humanitarian. If they get ill, spouse is going to have a child, they need assistance because now they have the child and work doesn't pay enough to cover medical, food and daily living necessities, awww, too bad, we didn't ask them to come here, let 'em die and let someone else sort 'em out. I getcha. If they pound out children, we should send them packing. great idea.

I think there are American citizens in similar situations, working minimum wage jobs, no healthcare insurance, needing food assistance, heating assistance, rent assistance, yeah, I think I recall hearing about our own poor which some politicians are trying to cut those safety nets for our own too. But, what the heck, we didn't ask those poor people to have babies either. America is just loaded with takers and no makers. We should just let those people croak too, after all, they're easily replaceable with another body to do the menial work.

I just didn't realize there were so many humanitarians living among us, thanks for enlightening me.

I wonder if people felt this way when immigrants, or illegal immigrants came across the ocean to escape war and strife? They came to America to be free. How would you know that the only reason people immigrate to the USA is for work, maybe they want to make America their new home and raise a family in a better place.

Now see, when did I ever say it would get too expensive? You must be psychic.
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Old 12-29-2012, 11:11 AM
 
Location: southern california
55,668 posts, read 74,655,684 times
Reputation: 48188
open defiance by DC, no budget no security from foreign invaders and more taxes for not doing their jobs. does not look like a democracy bek it is not responding to the populous. problem is the populous is divided 50- 50 about how the country should be run. the 1/2 that work say in a responsible manner, the other 1/2 that dont work, say as a welfare state.
#1 concern of current government forget about disarming the invaders and ghettos, lets disarm the the working inhabitants.
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