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Old 10-20-2007, 09:34 PM
 
Location: SW Kansas
1,787 posts, read 3,347,639 times
Reputation: 1401

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Nobody in their right mind would want to be a Doctor in the United States. Too much paper work, too many lawsuits, too long of hours - just too much bad, not nearly enough good and dang sure not enough pay!
Now to get back to the topic. I don't know exactly how I feel about the article posted. It's one person's perspective and I don't completely agree with him. IF we need to expand legal immigration (I'm not convinced we need to) we need to concentrate on importing better immigrants, not just more.
People that come here on guest visa's are just that - guests. They should treat our country with even more respect and consideration than they do their own - as they would if they were a guest in a home. They have been offered an opportunity to work and prosper, they should use it to their advantage and be thankful. I don't believe a majority of our guest workers actually want to become United States citizens, and I don't think they should have to. They are here to work, and then go home. Their allegience is to their country of origin. I think they are very different than immigrants. Immigrants (should) come to this country wanting the American Dream, in it's entirety. Whatever motivations they have to leaving their country of origin usually also motivates them to claiming the United States as their own, swearing their allegience, and they become citizens.
I think Germany's Green Card was a clear invitation to be used and cast out - who would want that? Whereas ours is an invitation to work temporarily or become a citizen - the choice is theirs.
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Old 10-21-2007, 03:21 AM
 
Location: Denton, TX
133 posts, read 487,129 times
Reputation: 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by chele123 View Post
People that come here on guest visa's are just that - guests. They should treat our country with even more respect and consideration than they do their own - as they would if they were a guest in a home. They have been offered an opportunity to work and prosper, they should use it to their advantage and be thankful.
Uh, how about we treat everyone equally? I immigrated to the United States seven years ago due to my father's job transfer, and I treated Americans just the same way I did the English. Just because one has come to the country to stay for two weeks, three months, a year, or a lifetime, no one should be treated any better or worse on the sole basis of nationality.
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Old 10-21-2007, 04:29 AM
 
Location: Los Angeles
44 posts, read 23,740 times
Reputation: 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by macmeal View Post
LEGAL immigrants, admitted in an orderly fashion and checked out, and deemed worthy of COMING here (no felons, etc) provide "new blood" and keep things "developing" in a society that has a falling birth rate. They help form bonds with the world at large, and prevent us from becoming a closed, stagnant society.
So, you're saying Japan has problems as a result of their no-immigration policy? How then is it that they're a member of G8?

Furthermore, Americans have been told for DECADES that their birth rate is too high, and it needs to be lowered in order to cultivate a more ecologically sound nation, free of dependency on foreign energy and creating less pollution.

And, which jobs are immigrants doing that Americans cannot? Before the 1965 immigration act was passed by Congress, for which occupations was there a deficit of workers?
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Old 10-21-2007, 04:07 PM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,619,457 times
Reputation: 2983
Quote:
Originally Posted by VDARE Reader View Post
So, you're saying Japan has problems as a result of their no-immigration policy? How then is it that they're a member of G8?

Furthermore, Americans have been told for DECADES that their birth rate is too high, and it needs to be lowered in order to cultivate a more ecologically sound nation, free of dependency on foreign energy and creating less pollution.

And, which jobs are immigrants doing that Americans cannot? Before the 1965 immigration act was passed by Congress, for which occupations was there a deficit of workers?
Depends on exactly how we define "progress", etc. Japan does indeed have problems, I've heard, due to a seriously decreasing birth rate. They're looking around for ways to "staff" their economy WITHOUT opening up to immigration-(a few years ago, they tried bringing in Japanese-Brazilians..but found that, three generations or more removed from Japanese society, these were no longer "Japanese" enough to assimilate, and the program was scrapped). Don't know what their future is, but they are going to need some kind of "replacements", if not immigrants.

Jobs Americans NEVER DID?..there's no such thing. Americans (even WHITE Americans) have picked cotton, dug ditches, raked asphalt, and mopped floors. But that's a long way from saying the typical American young person WILL do these jobs anymore. How would you like to run a large "maid service"--or a large landscaping service---or a fruit-packing plant, or a cannery--- staffed with 20-year old Americans? Good luck! If you could get them to even SHOW UP five days in a row, you'd be doing good.

I'd like to see our popualtion stabilize as well as you would. But unless we embark on an entirely different sort of economy than we now have, it won't be possible to take care of a huge number of "older" Americans by a shrinking number of younger, well-educated Americans who are none too eager to do "grunt work".

Let's face it, no society of wealthy, leisure-oriented people WANTS to do the "nasty" jobs, whether or not they "could"--or even "ought to". The Persian Gulf states are fabuluosly wealthy--and almost entirely "staffed" with foreigners (in Kuwait, I believe these outnumber the Kuwaitis). THese aren't really immigrants, because these societies don't tolerate immigration---but they certainly are "foreigners"--and they're not there because the locals "like" them, they're there because the locals don't want to scrub toilets and mix concrete.....

Perhaps we could all convert to Mormonism---or become Amish? With a continued high birth rate, (such as the Mormons have in Utah), or an "Amish" work-ethic.... your plan just might work, without immigration. But as things now stand, I'm afraid we still need "new blood"----can you suggest a source for this WITHOUT legal immigration? I'm sure we'd all love to hear it.....
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Old 10-21-2007, 05:39 PM
 
2,432 posts, read 6,006,346 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by macmeal View Post

Perhaps we could all convert to Mormonism---or become Amish? With a continued high birth rate, (such as the Mormons have in Utah), or an "Amish" work-ethic.... your plan just might work, without immigration. But as things now stand, I'm afraid we still need "new blood"----can you suggest a source for this WITHOUT legal immigration? I'm sure we'd all love to hear it.....
Just because we have people who are willing to come here both legally and illegally doesn't mean we need them. The business community may want them because of the cheap labor, but that doesn't mean we need them.
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Old 10-21-2007, 05:47 PM
 
8,287 posts, read 11,480,451 times
Reputation: 4938
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Originally Posted by Hawkeye48 View Post
That's unfortunate. Perhaps if we didn't have such liberal immigration policies those medical school slots could have gone to an American.
maybe you should realize that most American students would rather be Lawyers than doctors.
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Old 10-21-2007, 05:55 PM
 
2,432 posts, read 6,006,346 times
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Originally Posted by MiamiRob View Post
maybe you should realize that most American students would rather be Lawyers than doctors.
We have thousands of American students that want to be doctors. So much so that they are willing to attend medical school in foreign countries.

Whether more students would rather be lawyers than doctors is not relevant. We have plenty of students to go around. Walk through some of our poor inner cities. There are plenty of Americans that would love to have the opportunity to be doctors, or nurses, or any other medical related field.
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Old 10-21-2007, 06:17 PM
 
Location: Mesa, Az
21,148 posts, read 36,633,862 times
Reputation: 3785
Quote:
Originally Posted by VDARE Reader View Post

Furthermore, Americans have been told for DECADES that their birth rate is too high, and it needs to be lowered in order to cultivate a more ecologically sound nation, free of dependency on foreign energy and creating less pollution.
Factoring in the (slightly) higher birthrate of immigrants; the USA has achieved ZPG (2.1 children per woman)

Quote:
And, which jobs are immigrants doing that Americans cannot? Before the 1965 immigration act was passed by Congress, for which occupations was there a deficit of workers?
Part of the problem was the Vietnam War-----many kids who normally would have gone into so-called 'blue collar' careers stuck it out in college to avoid the Draft.

Much as I hate to say this: but; with such a glut of college grads out there------it has 'raised the bar' for many jobs/careers 50 years ago for which a HS diploma would have sufficed.
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Old 10-22-2007, 02:40 PM
 
Location: Anchorage, Alaska (most of the time)
1,222 posts, read 3,287,304 times
Reputation: 1881
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hawkeye48 View Post
We have thousands of American students that want to be doctors. So much so that they are willing to attend medical school in foreign countries.
To be fair, don't these Americans then take up spaces for the native people of those countries then? Just as an non-American studying at an American university takes up space that could otherwise have gone to an American?
If Americans go to other countries to study because they want it so badly, can't it be the same, that other people of other nationalities than American do the same and come to study in the US, because they don't get accepted in their own countries?
I myself know someone who does just that. My friend's sister didn't get in to medical school in Sweden, but got accepted in the US. She's not going to stay in the US, just as many Americans studying abroad doesn't intend to stay in the country where they got their education.

As for the article: I agree that the green cards Germany introduced can be seen as a sign that "we don't wan't you, just your labour". In that sense, the American is better.
But, you cannot compare all of Europe with how Germany deals with integration and immigration. Just want to make that distinction.
I do think that Fareed Zakaria is right that people need hope of evolving in the new homecountry, no matter what country it is.
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Old 10-22-2007, 02:43 PM
 
2,432 posts, read 6,006,346 times
Reputation: 1009
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sweden View Post
To be fair, don't these Americans then take up spaces for the native people of those countries then? Just as an non-American studying at an American university takes up space that could otherwise have gone to an American?
Not really. Because many of these schools are setup specifically to cater to Americans. If the Americans were not attending the medical school it most likely would close.
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