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Old 10-25-2007, 10:41 AM
 
Location: Greater Houston
4,514 posts, read 8,597,576 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andreabeth View Post
What? If you think the tax code is unjust, you don't have to pay your taxes?
But you have to deal with the "consequence" of persecution. Do you have to believe in Anglicanism if you're Catholic and the state forces their religion on you? But you have to deal with the consequences of breaking the "law."
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Old 10-25-2007, 12:00 PM
 
Location: Bike to Surf!
3,080 posts, read 9,687,600 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AZaussie View Post
Hi Sponger
I would say nope I can't. The only Aussie's I've known that have came here have either 1) Had money or 2) Been offered a job due to their field of work (ie. College Educated)
That's because those are really the only ways into the country. However, this presents a problem: Not everyone can be a manager. We still need worker bees. With a low birth rate and a general trend of upward mobility for hard-working lower-class families and individuals, the low-paying jobs quickly run out of laborers in our system. It is for this reason that significant laborer-class immigration is necessary. It has always been necessary, from the Irish to the Chinese, we've needed an influx of immigrants throughout several generations of US history. Currently, the law only allows upper-middle class immigration of manager, office worker, technician classes. Thus, we have a large "illegal" influx of laborer-class workers to fill the bottom rung.

Businesses are taking advantage of these worker's illegal status in order to underpay them and increase profitability. This places an artificial strain on the system. Illegal immigration is basically a business subsidy, with taxpayers picking up the tab for the additional strain illegals place on social services. That tab should rightfully be paid by employers. Additonally, despite anti-immigrant's wild accusations, illegal immigrants actually use less social services (and fewer services in general) than the rest of the population.

As for the labor: it's not that these are jobs "American's won't do." These are actually traditional "starter" jobs for new Americans who have recently immigrated (as well as for the children of later-generation immigrants, like those who came from Europe). If we had a higher birth rate or higher unemployment, there'd be no need for this influx of labor, but the truth is that unemployment is low and the middle class and higher reproduce at lower rates. Thus, there are not enough of their offspring to temporarily fill these jobs (before they move on to higher education and higher-paying higher-skilled employment).

Quote:
I know it seems unfair in concept to only allow people who are in a more 'well to do' situation migrate here but there is generaly little concern that they will be a burden on the system. They either contribute to the economy by spending, or by working and paying taxes.
As people have said, America shouldn't have to pick up the tab for people who'd just like to move here with little to no money and work a normal job.
The problem is that business has everyone convinced that employees are nothing but liabilities. We should all be so f**king grateful for the big bossman to "give" us employment. The truth is that workers ARE the company. Without laborers, there is no business. The people who "work a normal job" are the backbone of the American economy. I don't understand why people are convinced that those who work "a normal job" are some sort of drain on the system. They are the fuel that fires the country's economic engine! I live and work among immigrants both legal and of questionable status. These people work hard, make and save money. They put away as much as they can to give their kids education and a better life, and that's what makes society function well. They might be lower-class, but a large percentage of their children graduate HS and College and enhance the middle-classes within a generation.

As I've stated above, we're not picking up the tab for anyone. We need this infusion of labor to keep our economy going. What we need to do is change the laws to give this influx of labor the same labor protections that every other generation of immigrants has had. Otherwise, business will continue to exploit their status as unprotected laborers. This lowers the cost of labor and goods and hurts all of us in the long run.

Quote:
I guess the concern is if someone moves here of their own accord to be say a plumber, what will happen to them if they ever find themselves out of work? Should they be allowed to just go on welfare? How would they keep a roof over their head with no family to support them or little money in the bank?
No, immigration should be tied to employment. If your husband were to lose his job, you would both go on public assistance and become burdens on the economy.

In general, immigration should be based on the ability to stay off public assistance programs. The plumber in your example would be given a grace period to find a new job and resume paying taxes and keeping himself and his family above the poverty line. If he could not do that, his conditional green card would be revoked and he and his family would be deported. Conditions on green cards for labor-class immigrants could be set to last anywhere from 2-to-10 years. After that, they should be allowed to naturalize and enjoy the benefits of full citizenship.

The same would happen to you if you were to break any laws or get divorced during the 2-year conditional period of your green card. However, I think this is bullsh*t. If you are gainfully employed, supporting yourself, and paying taxes, you should not have to leave the country just because your US-citizen spouse divorces you. That makes no sense and does nothing to help our country or our economy.

Quote:
People who are currently allowed to migrate including myself aren't entitled to use government services and nor should we be. This goes back to the fact we either have money or family to help us out.
Now before I'm asked what would happen to me if I split up with my husband (which is a valid point) I would have to leave the country under orders of immigration reguardless of if I was working or not. Should this be an option for people who migrate here legally for labour jobs if they are out of work?
What if they had come from a country in Europe, Asia or even Australia and couldn't afford to leave? Should America pick up the tab on the flight home or let them live on welfare until they get back on their feet? (I feel they really aren't owed either option but that's just my personal opinion).
There are so many questions when it comes to this topic...
I think I've answered some of the questions. However, I'm speaking of how it SHOULD be, not how it is. I believe the system is currently broken. It does nothing to help the US economy, besides benefiting unscrupulous employers who hire and abuse illegal laborers.

I'm not sure if you are allowed to use public assistance services. Your husband had to prove that he could support you and keep you off the welfare rolls, but if some catastrophe were to wipe out his job and savings, I think you probably could both (or at least him) apply for welfare/unemployment and stay in the country. It's only if your family connection is terminated that you would be forced to leave the country.

Anyway, I'm sure none of these hypothetical situations will happen to you. Again, welcome. Hope you enjoy it here.
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Old 10-25-2007, 12:01 PM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,612,395 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KerrTown View Post
But you have to deal with the "consequence" of persecution. Do you have to believe in Anglicanism if you're Catholic and the state forces their religion on you? But you have to deal with the consequences of breaking the "law."
Quite true, and that's what makes this country so unique (which I think EVERYONE agrees it is....not always popular, but certainly unique). It's the fact that we, as a new nation, made the decision that we'd be a nation of laws, period. Sometimes that's hard to accept. Try explaining to the rape victim, or the parents of the child killed by a drunk driver, why they can't seek out "revenge". None of us would blame them, yet they simply CANNOT do this. The law is held supreme over our personal situations, and in the larger picture, it WORKS, far better than other systems.

Take Colombia, just for an example. The "law" there isn't respected. It's not seen as fair, but as a tool of the rich to oppress the poor. As a result, the drug cartels hold more power than the legitimate government. In many cases they actually TAKE BETTER CARE of the local people than the government does. (just make sure you don't annoy them )...But would anybody here really want to give up our stuffy "rule of law" and live in the "suvival of the fittest" system of Colombia, or dozens of similar places?

The law is sometimes unfair. It can be changed if need be, if enough people wantn that. But meanwhile, if it's not obeyed, chaos and misery are the result. It's as simple as that. The law, as understood here in America, is more important than anybody's personal whim, and it must be obeyed, or changed, not ignored. Sure beats the alternative......
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Old 10-25-2007, 12:47 PM
 
Location: Pa
20,310 posts, read 18,881,481 times
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Sponger you seem to miss the reason for a minimum 2 year status requirement. This is to help weed out those who marry simply for the green card. Believe it or not this happens and it happens alot. The Russian mailorder bride business... The system like any is abused heavily and it evolves. It tends to be quite reactionary based on political climate. The fact remains our immigration laws are entirely fair especially when compared to most. The fact also remains that when someone chooses to immigrate to another country they need to accept those terms completely. If they cant they should look at other alternatives. It should never be the burden of the host nation to accomadate the whims of the foreigners.
I would suggest looking at the immigration requirements of most other nations. You will find steep requirements indeed. Thailand requires a minimum of 50 grand in savings in a thai bank. That is to gain a residency visa. As an immigrant you can never own land in your name. Mexico is very much the same and worse. Most nations make a point to limit foreigners rights to include your children even if born in their country.
Our laws are most fair when compared to other nations.
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Old 10-25-2007, 01:29 PM
 
Location: Bike to Surf!
3,080 posts, read 9,687,600 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tinman01 View Post
Sponger you seem to miss the reason for a minimum 2 year status requirement. This is to help weed out those who marry simply for the green card. Believe it or not this happens and it happens alot. The Russian mailorder bride business... The system like any is abused heavily and it evolves. It tends to be quite reactionary based on political climate. The fact remains our immigration laws are entirely fair especially when compared to most. The fact also remains that when someone chooses to immigrate to another country they need to accept those terms completely. If they cant they should look at other alternatives. It should never be the burden of the host nation to accomadate the whims of the foreigners.
I would suggest looking at the immigration requirements of most other nations. You will find steep requirements indeed. Thailand requires a minimum of 50 grand in savings in a thai bank. That is to gain a residency visa. As an immigrant you can never own land in your name. Mexico is very much the same and worse. Most nations make a point to limit foreigners rights to include your children even if born in their country.
Our laws are most fair when compared to other nations.
I am well aware that the 2 year conditions are to "weed out" fradulent marriages. I'm also aware that they are remarkably ineffective. Because you can't legislate the way people live their lives (or handle their marriages) the tests and conditions on the marriage only serve to annoy truly married people while the frauds slip right on through, easily practicing for the standard questions that they will be asked in the interview, and gathering the necessary documents to "prove" their marriage is bona-fied.

You seem to be taking a nativist stance that immigration is a negative force on a nation and that we are burdening ourselves by accepting immigrants. This might be true for family-based immigration, but would be untrue for employment-based immigration. What works for Thailand does not work for the United States, because we have a different society and economic structure. I am glad other nations have stricter immigration requirements (though those laws, as well, suffer from poor enforcement), immigration of willing laborers is a net benefit for growing a powerful economy like our own.

If unemployment was at >10% or US citizen birth rates wildly outpaced mortality rates, I'd be singing a different tune. In the meanwhile, I can clearly see that a hardworking laborer (immigrant or not) contributes more to the economy than he takes away. This has always been the case. I believe it is misguided nativism that leads anti-immigration activists to lobby for reduced immigration and increased deportation (rather than documentation) of illegal laborers.

If you can provide me with proof that a landscaper, sharecropper, construction worker, or other low-skill, low-wage worker (typically where the majority of illegal aliens find employment) who would be paid lawful wages, resides within and pays into the tax system, and contribute to a company's success, actually COSTS more than he BENEFITS the economy, I will agree with you that immigration should be slowed.

In the meanwhile, I see it a economic suicide to close our doors to labor-class immigrants and very dishonest for us--and damaging to our way of life--to tacitly accept the exploitation of an underclass of undocumented laborers by unscrupulous business.

What drives me is not what is best, humane, or fair for immigrants. I care about what is best for the United States. I believe that our strong economic heritage of welcoming, utilizing, and eventually elevating hard working labor-classes actually aids our country as a whole and improves conditions for all of us. I think it is an unreasonable fear of foreigners and newcomers that has allowed this current situation with masses of illegal immigrants and very few labor-class legal immigrants. I agree that it is straining our social services and hobbling our economic growth, but I see a solution in the harnessing and documenting of this large labor force.

I agree that immigrants need to abide by the laws of the country. I support fines for lawbreakers. However, I think that it is the backwards immigration laws themselves that are hurting our country and that they are in immediate need of sweeping reform.
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Old 10-25-2007, 02:02 PM
 
16,092 posts, read 35,779,846 times
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I would support the IRS auditing all 'new arrivals' - who mostly deal in cash. Then give them the same punishment they give citizens, instead of looking the other way while billions are wired out of the country. No more special treatment.
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Old 10-25-2007, 11:41 PM
 
Location: new mexico
447 posts, read 705,921 times
Reputation: 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by AZaussie View Post
What a friendly buch! Thanks for being so welcoming
Hey, who ever made the comment about beer go to an Outback Steakhouse and order a Tooheys New! That's a beer!

Travelling Fella if your ready to read I'll try and explain how it happened!
I'm actually married to an American who was living in Australia with me. (At the time we were only engaged though)
He decided to move back to the US for his line of work. Since I had never lived here and only visited in the past I had to apply to US immigration for a visa. We thought it would take a few months at most to be processed so my hubby came back home here, started a new job and got settled while I waited in Australia. During this time I was required by US immigration to have all my shots updated, I was x-rayed to make sure I didn't have TB, I had blood tests to make sure I wasn't carrying HIV etc. Many months later (it all took much longer then expected) I was sent a letter requesting me to appear at US Immigration in Sydney, so I took some time off work and flew there. It was very daunting, you are interviewed in front of everyone waiting and I saw them turning people away (ouch!) I was asked to provide proof of relationship etc and was quizzed on a number of things. My other half also had to send them bank statements showing he made enough money to support me (he had to sign a form saying he would be financialy responsible for me until I was allowed to work). I think this is where quite a few people get turned away which is fair enough.
So after this American guy had questioned me and asked me the same things about 5 different times (they want to make sure your not lying about anything) he said was approving my visa! He was behind a glass wall so I said 'thankyou! If I could hug you I would!".
Then I had 6 months to leave the country, so pretty soon I arrived.
It took about 7 months to be able to work and get a social security number. I have spent close to $3000 on being here so far and I will continue to pay fee's to immigration probably for the next 5 years or so because I have to change my status (visa) from time to time and immigration will check to make sure that we are still married and I didn't just come here and take off somewhere to do my own thing. (Nothing much is kept personal from these people lol)
I'll admit I've had some frustrated moments waiting for things to get done but I am grateful for the opptunity to be here. I have been doing volunteer work as often as I can as a small way of giving something back to my new home. I think all migrants should seriously consider doing the same. - Ok I'll shutup now!
sorry you've gone through so much...but again i applaud you for preservering.
this is the true american...aussie-american...african, mexican,,, german asian american spirit...
thank you for coming...i hope you love what you have come for. best wishes on the marriage.
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Old 10-25-2007, 11:48 PM
 
Location: new mexico
447 posts, read 705,921 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lakewooder View Post
Something is seriously wrong when gay citizens are not allowed into the Armed Forces but people who have broken the law and are foreigners are recruited.
right...agreed..anyone who is willing to protect america, is good enough for me..who cares if someone is gay? not me...can they fire a weapon, is the better question? and to what country is their loyalty?????...that is one notch further on my list.
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