U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Politics and Other Controversies > Illegal Immigration
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 10-24-2007, 10:37 AM
 
16,092 posts, read 35,811,188 times
Reputation: 6264

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by Travelling fella View Post
I thought it would be interesting to know your opinions.

is it poverty?
mexican government corruption?
american government corruption?
coorporate corruption?
social infrastructure that lets them thrive?
a strong habit created by generations of people doing it?
the fact is relatively easy to do it?
the desire for a better life?

all of the above?

something else?

for what i've learnt here everybody is concerned by this problem so I thought that maybe if the causes were known it'd be easy to find a solution.

Love and Light
A sense that lawlessness is OK.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 10-24-2007, 02:15 PM
 
9,742 posts, read 9,068,689 times
Reputation: 2049
The answer is simple. I'll phrase it in the form of a question. "Why would people quit their minimum wage jobs to work for $100K per year?"
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-24-2007, 02:57 PM
 
Location: Bike to Surf!
3,080 posts, read 9,699,138 times
Reputation: 2977
Quote:
Originally Posted by Travelling fella View Post
I thought it would be interesting to know your opinions.

is it poverty?
Yes, this sparks the urge to move to the US.

Quote:
mexican government corruption?
Yes, this causes the poverty. But it is not just the Mexican government.

Quote:
american government corruption?
Yes, this keeps the immigration system screwed up, and prevents reforms allowing the legal immigration of willing workers. Instead, the majority of all immigration visas are eaten up by family-based immigrants, who do not necessarily contribute to the US economy.

The government keeps the system screwed up (and prevents legal immigration of workers) in order to pander to big business, which profits from having undocumented labor working at below-market prices.

Quote:
coorporate corruption?
Not really. Only in the manner stated above.

Quote:
social infrastructure that lets them thrive?
No. Most illegal immigrants do not seek social services. Most social services in areas high in illegal immigrants are underfunded to begin with and only marginally operable in the first place. I know, because I live there. Social services have always been strained in my poor neighborhoods. No one depends on them. Instead, they depend on what they can buy with their $3/hour jobs.

Quote:
a strong habit created by generations of people doing it?
No. Previous generations had the option of legal mass immigration. That does not exist today.

Quote:
the fact is relatively easy to do it?
Yes, the lack of a secure border encourages defiance of a broken immigration system.

Quote:
the desire for a better life?
Yes, the reasons need not be stated.



The best solution is to close the border and provide significant employment-based immigration quotas tied to unemployment and total population. Illegals in the country should be given the opportunity to legalize if they can prove they can find work that keeps them above the poverty level and paying taxes. They should also pay a fine for the civil offense they committed by entering the country without inspection. Any illegal with a criminal record should be deported.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-24-2007, 03:20 PM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,625,689 times
Reputation: 2983
The causes of Illegal Immigration are several; among them are;

(1) GREED---Greed prompts employers to "look the other way" in hiring the cheapest workforce possible, preferrably one whom they've "got something on". Knowing your workers are fearful of their precarious legal situation insures that they won't give you a lot of problems or "back talk".....

(2) RACE- Illegals sense that their non-white ethnicity gives them a tremendous advantage in the "game" they're playing, and that the average middle class American, for the most part, will do just about anything, and make just about any concession, and accept just about any excuse, no matter how poorly reasoned or unjustified, to avoid being called a "racist"....

(3) GUILT- The fact that America is a Christian-based, secular liberal Western society makes it particularly susceptible to a tremendous societal guilt in regards to its own prosperity...in other words, many Americans feel they don't DESERVE to be affluent, and "giving it away" to illegals helps to atone for this "sin"....

(4) THIRD-WORLD INTRANSIGENCE-- Having a convenient "dumping-ground" for the poor, disenfranchised and angry members of their own societies means that the leaders of these places can continue in their rapacious habits without trying to remedy the situation. Anyone who doesn't like it "here", they feel, can just go to the US....remembering, of course, to be sure and send those remittances home !.....

(5) Simple GEOGRAPHY--Mexico is not a particularly poor country, and it's far better off than probably half the other countries of the world. But the fact is that from there, you can "walk" into the world's leading economy (for now at least). This gives Mexico a tremendous advantage over Bangla Desh, Chad, Togo, Somalia, Haiti, and many other places far poorer, but whose citizens just can't "get here" as easily.

(6) FEAR- Many Americans are quite frankly afraid of some illegal activist groups, mystified at their anger, belligerence, and complete lack of any gratitude toward the U.S. Americans don't understand this behavior, and can find it intimidating, making it appear as if they "accept" the activists' points, when in fact they're simply afraid to antagonize them...

(7) LAZINESS- Much as we hate to admit it, very few Americans are willing anymore to do hard, unpleasant, boring work. Pay is only a part of it. Generous welfare benefits make it possible for us to be very selective in what jobs we will, or won't, accept. And the indulgent upbringing of many of our young people virtually guarantees they won't be interested in long, hot, tiring days doing anything they aren't particularly interested in. Americans once did ALL jobs---but many no longer feel they have to, particularly the younger generation.

Last edited by macmeal; 10-24-2007 at 04:15 PM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-24-2007, 04:36 PM
 
Location: The world, where will fate take me this time?
3,162 posts, read 10,304,768 times
Reputation: 1423
Well, people I have to say, that I've really learnt a lot of things here in the forum, and if someone wants to know the opinion that a Mexican citizen, who lives and loves in his country has formed I'd like to share it.

I think the immigration system is broken because it discourages legal immigration and encourages illegal, this has brought such an influx of illegals from everywhere in the world, that to fix it'd be necesary to close the borders first (and yes this comes from a person who dreams of an open world)

Regarding the illegals that are already in America, I guess it'd be impossible to deport them all imho and it'd cause a painful adjustment in America's economy if these people just vanished in a second, so something needs to be done about them, for what i've seen here a lot of people supports the idea of making them pay a fine, and to have a series of exams of english and about american culture and values, imho some kind of oath of alleigance similar to the one who state when you become a citizen but intended to respect America's laws from now on would be good, specially if they have children and it'd be good if their children stated it too.

imho the idea of making them return to their home countries to return legally is a bit unrealistic because most people will fear that if they do that they won't be accepted back so I guess it'd be better to make a database of them to keep an eye on their activities, and let them know that they are in "probation" for violating US, borders and laws.

then after those problems are solved I guess it would be a good moment to concentrate in fixing America's broken immigration system and make a realistic one, for sure a lot of businesses will start crying and threathening with offshore their businesses but you can't offshore everything and they need to know who's the boss and who sets the rules (American citizens)

The only problem for this to happen imho is that your government needs to know I don't know how but they need to know how frustrated all of you are and that you aren't going to stand just watching about these abuses, I guess you'd need to find a way to hit your government where it hurts the most so they can stop their corrupt endeavors and start fixing the house.

maybe I'm saying things that you already know, I'm sure i'm doing hehehe but I guess is interesting to know that a person who is not an American citizen would think the same way you do after knowing more about this problem.

Just my humble 2 cents.

my best wishes to you

Last edited by Travelling fella; 10-24-2007 at 05:00 PM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-24-2007, 04:55 PM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,625,689 times
Reputation: 2983
Quote:
Originally Posted by Travelling fella View Post
Well, people I have to say, that I've really learnt a lot of things here in the forum, and if someone wants to know the opinion that a Mexican citizen, who lives and loves in his country has formed I'd like to share it.

I think the immigration system is broken because it discourages legal immigration and encourages illegal, this has brought such an influx of illegals from everywhere in the world, that to fix it'd be necesary to close the borders first (and yes this comes from a person who dreams of an open world)

Regarding the illegals that are already in America, I guess it'd be impossible to deport them all imho and it'd cause a painful adjustment in America's economy if these people just vanished in a second, so something needs to be done about them, for what i've seen here a lot of people supports the idea of making them pay a fine, and to have a series of exams of english and about american culture and values, imho some kind of oath of alleigance similar to the one who state when you become a citizen but intended to respect America's laws from now on, imho the idea of making them return to their home countries to return legally is a bit unrealistic because most people will fear that if they do that they won't be accepted back so I guess it'd be better to make a database of them to keep an eye on their activities, and let them know that they are in "probation" for violating US, borders and laws.

then after those problems are solved I guess it would be a good moment to concentrate in fixing America's broken immigration system and make a realistic one, for sure a lot of businesses will start crying and threathening with offshore their businesses but you can't offshore everything and they need to know who's the boss and who sets the rules (American citizens)

The only problem for this to happen imho is that your government needs to know I don't know how but they need to know how frustrated all of you are and that you aren't going to stand just watching about these abuses.

maybe i'm saying things that you already know, I'm sure i'm doing hehehe but I guess is interesting to know that a person who is not an American citizen would think the same way you do after knowing more about this problem.

Just my humble 2 cents.

my best wishes for you
Information is always good. If you can give us the honest views from someone in Mexico (our biggest "sending" nation in illegal immigration), then that is to be admired. I hope also that you'll pass the word in Mexico that we are not evil or heartless, but that we have many problems with those who enter here illegally---just as THEY would have with illegal Guatemalans, Haitians, or Libyans entering Mexico. There are many parallels, and people everywhere have more similarites than differences.

Best wishes to you----
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-24-2007, 05:16 PM
 
Location: Phoenix
38 posts, read 162,922 times
Reputation: 27
1. The Law - It is illegal because it is so defined in our immigration law. As the lawlessness of prohibition ended with repeal of prohibition, the simple way to cure the "illegal" aspect is to change the law. This would shut up the "laws are laws as any fool can see" zealots.

2. Jobs- We have an aging workforce and a demand for cheap labor. Even when we pay 30% greater or more for our roofing, landscape, farmproducts, construction and services; we simply don't have a sufficient workforce. Get ready for the inflation these "border security" zealots are going to cause.

3. Poverty. Who is going to leave home and family, brave the hazards of the border crossing, go to an unwelcoming foreign land to pick crops or tar roofs at minimum wage or less? Just the guy that has a starving family. Then he lives in a room with 8 other guys so he can send money back home. I would like to think that under those circumstances, I would have the courage to do the same.

Thank god we live in a country with a Judeo/Christian ethic of compassion, tolerance and generosity. A nation where mean-spirited xenophobia cannot thwart the essential goodness of the American soul. A nation that looks toward it's neighbor with sympathy and understanding. A nation that will build bridges and not walls.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-24-2007, 05:45 PM
 
16,092 posts, read 35,811,188 times
Reputation: 6264
Mean-spirited is causing trouble for your neighbor - that's what 8 people in one room do.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-24-2007, 05:48 PM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,625,689 times
Reputation: 2983
Quote:
Originally Posted by travelintom View Post
1. The Law - It is illegal because it is so defined in our immigration law. As the lawlessness of prohibition ended with repeal of prohibition, the simple way to cure the "illegal" aspect is to change the law. This would shut up the "laws are laws as any fool can see" zealots.

2. Jobs- We have an aging workforce and a demand for cheap labor. Even when we pay 30% greater or more for our roofing, landscape, farmproducts, construction and services; we simply don't have a sufficient workforce. Get ready for the inflation these "border security" zealots are going to cause.

3. Poverty. Who is going to leave home and family, brave the hazards of the border crossing, go to an unwelcoming foreign land to pick crops or tar roofs at minimum wage or less? Just the guy that has a starving family. Then he lives in a room with 8 other guys so he can send money back home. I would like to think that under those circumstances, I would have the courage to do the same.

Thank god we live in a country with a Judeo/Christian ethic of compassion, tolerance and generosity. A nation where mean-spirited xenophobia cannot thwart the essential goodness of the American soul. A nation that looks toward it's neighbor with sympathy and understanding. A nation that will build bridges and not walls.
All good points, totally compassionate to the illegals (though you don't seem to have much sympathy for the US middle class)...but the problem is, your points could be used to justify almost any non-violent crime, whether it be trespassing, counterfeiting, welfare fraud, contracting without a license, building without a permit, or intentionally mislabeling food products. None of these "crimes" would be life-threatening, they'd just help to create a crappier, more degraded society. Is that OK?

If I want to illegally "pirate" Movies, for example, it wouldn't be wrong if I could just "get rid" of the copyright laws....it would bypass the "aging" workforce in the movie industry, and the profits would help alleviate my "poverty".
Want to build a house cheap? Fine!...We'll just ignore to building codes, build it the best way we can, (don't want to impose on those expensive, "aging" licensed contractors), then you pay me a small amount, and we've each lessened our "poverty"..NEAT! But is that really the kind of society we want to live in?
Of course illegals aren't violent criminals. But their presence here does help to degrade our economy, bringing the brutally competitive third-world reality of hunger, insecurity, and even poverty, just a little closer bit to the American worker. Is that what we want?
Your compassion, in and of itself, is admirable...but what if you had to personally support some of these folks, move them into your own home, or take a job loss to accomodate them...would that be "OK"?...(remember, they ARE poor!) Just how far would your compassion go--would there be a limit? Because that's exactly the situation we're in as a society, whether or not you choose to see it that way...
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Politics and Other Controversies > Illegal Immigration
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2018, Advameg, Inc.

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top